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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#711

Post by ddevault »

whatisthisfield wrote: post #679
ddevault wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problems with GNOME are not a fantasy. Fantasy: Wayland does not support screen capture. This criticism is not legitimate. In actual truth, many Wayland compositors do support screen capture. Not fantasy: GNOME on Wayland does not support server-side decorations. This is a legitimate criticism of GNOME.

> Not fantasy: GNOME on Wayland does not support server-side decorations. So GNOME doesn't support your precious use-case, but it works perfectly fine for most users without server-side decorations. This doesn't make GNOME a "dumpster fire" to anyone except the "Wayland sucks!" crowd. Or more of a dumpster fire than, say, Sway: I'm positive one can find a feature that Sway doesn't support.

GNOME is a dumpster fire is a personal judgement based on a lot of different factors.

But yes, if GNOME or Sway is missing a feature then you want, then that's on them. It would speak ill of GNOME or Sway. But it usually does not speak ill of Wayland, which is the fallacy many, many, many people make, and then fill my inbox up with hateful shit over stuff that Sway actually supports!

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#712

Post by Too »

floatboth wrote: post #446
Quekid5 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On this particular issue I find it hard to fault them for using a (perhaps overly) safe default. Summarily killing processes with a SIGKILL should really be a last resort because it can very easily corrupt data. If you have processes which just hang for ages during shutdown, there is probably something wrong with your system (or the process's code) which might warrant further investigation.

If your software corrupts data when it's killed, it's honestly not very good software. I kinda wish "proper shutdown" was never invented at all. That would've motivated so many developers to care about reliability much more :P

Flash wear and disk write ack latency would shoot up the roof for that to work unfortunately.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#713

Post by wander_homer »

kuschku wrote: post #324
enriquto wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With X11, even a flatpak without any special permissions or bind mounts can still basically control your system. Just listen for input events until you see the keys "s u d o", then listen until you see something that looks like a password, then wait until the user is not paying attention, and inject virtual input events to start a terminal and inject input events to run "sudo rm -rf /*" with the password you captur…

Flatpak runs applications in what’s nowadays referred to as container: the application can’t see any processes outside the container, can’t access any filesystem except for files you explicitly open with the application, and especially can’t edit your .bashrc. That’s the point of flatpak. But as long as you use X11, there’s one single privilege escalation path left, and that’s the complicated one I described above.

> Flatpak runs applications in what’s nowadays referred to as container: the application can’t see any processes outside the container, can’t access any filesystem except for files you explicitly open with the application, and especially can’t edit your .bashrc.

That's just false. Flatpak has the ability to restrict access to such resources, but it's completely up to the author of a Flatpak application if they make use of it. Like my file manager and text editor are Flatpaks fetched from flathub.org and both applications have unrestricted access to my whole home directory by default, including my shell configuration -- even the Chromium Flatpak can do that by default.

Edit: I just counted, out of 30 installed Flatpaks from flathub.org 19 have full access to either my whole home directory or the host file system.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#714

Post by foldr »

phkahler wrote: post #644
foldr wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. They're not pretending. I'm afraid you're laboring under a misconception. Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to…

>> Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to the project. I said nothing of the sort. They have an obligation to the project and its value as a piece of infrastructure used by many (including noncontributors).

But by saying that they have an obligation to noncontributors you do seem to be saying something at least in the neighborhood of what I suggested. I can’t understand where you think this obligation comes from. I used GNOME for a while. I never once imagined that the people who worked on it owed me a damn thing.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#715

Post by nitrogen »

icefo wrote: post #564
toyg wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the main use cases of whoever was funding the project (mainly redhat) But this is a real problem: it's not good that the Linux ecosystem has been reduced to "we shall eat whatever dogfood Redhat cooks for us". Wayland didn't even start as a RH project, iirc, and didn't really gain any traction for ages, but now it's a Big Deal because RH pushes it...?

I agree that's not good but redhat seems to be one of the few organization that pays developers to improve parts of the linux ecosystem. So when redhat endorse a project it probably means it tries to address some pain points of the status quo. That's how I see systemd and wayland. For systemd the consensus seems to be that's it's better than the previous init systems as most distributions have adopted it. It seems we…

For systemd the consensus seems to be that's it's better than the previous init systems as most distributions have adopted it.

I think the parent comment was alluding to the fact that RedHat has the ability to manufacture consensus. All the distributions use systemd (and pulseaudio and ...) because GNOME and other core components were modified to work only with systemd. So everyone agreed to use RedHat's way because there was no other way. No matter how good RH's creations might be, that's the kind of tail-wagging-the-dog power that is bad for an ecosystem.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#716

Post by foldr »

utborin wrote: post #549
foldr wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. They're not pretending. I'm afraid you're laboring under a misconception. Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to…

I understand where this thinking comes from but I still think it's kind of a simplistic attitude. People depend on the technology they use. When you convince someone to rely on something you've produced (and, crucially, continue working on), I think you do actually create a duty to be responsive to them. They depend on your work. Are we really so limited in our ethical thinking that we require an exchange of money to…

You somehow think that someone who’s done you a favor (by providing you with useful software for free) owes you more than someone who’s done nothing for you at all. That’s exactly backwards. You are obliged to them!

I struggle to express how strongly disagree. This is like saying that someone who gives away a 3D printer on freecycle is then obliged to help you fix any problems with it.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#717

Post by kaba0 »

roel_v wrote: post #285
fullstop wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that it's a bug in Chrome / Chromium since other applications are just fine even when Chrome is being dog slow.

If every other compositor/desktop system/whatever it is, is running fine, but not with Wayland, then how is it a Chrome 'bug'?

Chrome doesn’t even run on wayland, unless compiled specifically on a new enough branch so OP talks about the version running inside XWayland. It can possibly be a bug in the specific compositor’s xwayland implementation or even in chrome. Also, your special ability to try out every compositors must be really useful.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#718

Post by vetinari »

znpy wrote: post #705
vetinari wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ost wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland". Because usually the part "my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me" is not true. It will be said, when it comes to wayland, and they don't want to switch... but once hidpi or mixed-dpi d…

>>> most wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland". > Because usually the part "my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me" is not true. case in point. What do you know about my current setup for example? it works remarkably well for me.…

Exhibit A, recently on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25970690

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#719

Post by kuschku »

wander_homer wrote: post #713
kuschku wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flatpak runs applications in what’s nowadays referred to as container: the application can’t see any processes outside the container, can’t access any filesystem except for files you explicitly open with the application, and especially can’t edit your .bashrc. That’s the point of flatpak. But as long as you use X11, there’s one single privilege escalation path left, and that’s the complicated one I described above.

> Flatpak runs applications in what’s nowadays referred to as container: the application can’t see any processes outside the container, can’t access any filesystem except for files you explicitly open with the application, and especially can’t edit your .bashrc. That's just false. Flatpak has the ability to restrict access to such resources, but it's completely up to the author of a Flatpak application if they make u…

That's true, but not really relevant. The point of flatpak is that it can sandbox applications if just the right flag is set, but this sandboxing becomes useless on X11.

Long-term, all applications should strive to be properly sandboxed this way

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#720

Post by nitrogen »

boudin wrote: post #237
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well yeah, i just got used to it working a certain way, now i gotta figure it out again. fucking nerds acting like it,s no big deal when shit i use every day is all changed up. do you have any idea how much cognitive load that is for the average user to figure out new ui? and usually for no good reason, just to change shit up so someone can get credit for a project. don,t blame the users for software being shit. it,s…

The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.

The whole purpose of tools is to make people more productive. Software is just another set of tools. Software works for people. Not the other way around.

Imagine a screwdriver that would randomly switch to requiring a hammering motion instead of rotary motion, then the next day it only works if you hold it just right, then the day after that it freezes itself to the table to download updates and the update changes the shape of the tool bit so it won't even turn the screw you are now two days late on tightening. People would riot.

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