There's no two ways about it: economic growth means more ecological damage. Technology will not save us. IMO the only way to mitigate the onslaught of climate change is to do a controlled contraction of the world economy. If we do not do this willingly, nature will force it upon us.
Clean power is often more expensive at least initially, contraction would not only kill people through poverty but also make the environment worse as jobs transition to agriculture and power is generated through things like Coal and Oil
Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature
111–120 of 130 posts
Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have already started doing it: less travel, less dining out (or take out), and generally spending less money. More work is to be done on household energy consumption and water consumption, but that's coming.
The most impactful thing you could do is refrain from reproducing, but that's generally not a popular suggestion.
Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature
#113Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
Those who would give up nature, to purchase a little prosperity, deserve neither and will end up losing both.
Just substitute “modern medical care” for “prosperity” and you’ll see how ridiculous your statement is.
When prosperity means “throwing away tons of electronic crap people give each other for Christmas because they have been exposed to ads and social pressure to buy crap” or “flying planes in circle in the sky because people are nostalgic of traveling during lock-down”, then you can't have “prosperity” without harming nature.
Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
My impression is that other animal species generally are in harmony with nature: Non-human animals seem not to be inclined not to, in general, exhaust existing resources. They seem to have no interest in this, even where it would give them a monopolistic economic advantage over their competitors. You don't see animals hunting for sport. On the other hand, bacteria and viruses will exhaust the resources given to them,…
> Non-human animals seem not to be inclined not to, in general, exhaust existing resources. They certainly do, if given the chance. Boom-bust cycles caused by resource overextraction are common throughout the animal kingdom. The only reason that it isn't apparent to you is because you don't pay a lot of attention to animal resource supplies, and because over a long enough timeframe new equilibriums are sometimes form…
It is apparent to me that no other species (ever) has been implicated in a mass extinction event.
I notice both commenters referenced cats - a domesticated and invasive species.
> Humans are simply better at resource extraction than other animals.
Claiming that humans are 'better' ignores my point that bacteria will happily exhaust whatever resources are given to them.
Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Non-human animals seem not to be inclined not to, in general, exhaust existing resources. They certainly do, if given the chance. Boom-bust cycles caused by resource overextraction are common throughout the animal kingdom. The only reason that it isn't apparent to you is because you don't pay a lot of attention to animal resource supplies, and because over a long enough timeframe new equilibriums are sometimes form…
> The only reason that it isn't apparent to you It is apparent to me that no other species (ever) has been implicated in a mass extinction event. I notice both commenters referenced cats - a domesticated and invasive species. > Humans are simply better at resource extraction than other animals. Claiming that humans are 'better' ignores my point that bacteria will happily exhaust whatever resources are given to them.
So will most other animals. This isn't something unique to humans.
> I notice both commenters referenced cats - a domesticated and invasive species.
Foxes and coyotes, which I mentioned, aren't. Most predators do this (gratuitous killing) to some degree or another. Even some none-predators engage in "pointless" violent aggression towards other species.
> It is apparent to me that no other species (ever) has been implicated in a mass extinction event.
Only because most other species (since cyanobacteria) are drawing from a more limited pool of resources. Other species certainly do radically transform their local ecosystems which leads to disruption until other species move in to fill the new niches. What makes humans different is that our "resources" encompass a much broader area and array of material than other animals.
There is no steady state in the absence of human intervention. I am not claiming that humans are 'better.' They aren't. They're just another animal, just one unusually adaptable thanks to big brains, language, and thumbs. I'm not assigning any more value to that. In the long run, it might be a 'bad' thing, in that, as the comments here show, we tend to be much too proud of those big brains.
Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature
#117All technological revolutions require more energy and consumption. Remember that the infinite source of societal wealth is technological progress. If you limit technological progress then economics becomes zero sum. This cannot happen, it is a precursor to endless world wars and our inevitable doom by our own hands. Prosperity vs nature is not a question. There is no path backwards, there is only forward. The only ho…
The problem is overpopulation. Who cares if economics is zero sum when there is more than enough for everyone? It's only when there's scarcity of the necessities that war becomes a foregone conclusion. The path backwards is depopulation, and living as stewards of nature who help the land flourish rather than viewing it as a resource to be raped for the benefit of the few.
Additionally, it is difficult to see how restrictions on family can be imposed without becoming a totalitarian nightmare. Unless you look to China for enlightenment with its 'One Child' policy... which has the unintended consequence of a gender imbalance favouring boys. That of course means a lot of unhappy males, thanks to a shortage in available women. If we coalesce these two effects, you don't want masses of unhappy, unemployed males.
What is proposed here is impossible to achieve without inflicting unimaginable misery for millions. No thanks. Surely there are better and more gradual solutions which do not require the imposition of force rather than this euphemism of 'depopulation'.
Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature
#118I read a biography of an Italian farmer from the 1930 to the 1950s. In the 1930s he would prune wine vines, then dry them, and use the cuttings for fuel in the winter to stay warm and cook on. Nothing was wasted. Life in his village was still medieval before the war. By the 1950s he was working on building large tracks of housing, and the entire old way of life was gone. The change has been so rapid, we can't compreh…
'She will make a good American housewife...'
Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
What makes them vulnerable? What are they vulnerable to? Are there not indigenous peoples that live in harmony with nature? Are they prosperous?
> Are there not indigenous peoples that live in harmony with nature? Probably there are some somewhere. But most rely on completely unsustainable practices. > Are they prosperous? You've received some answers, but keep in mind that "poor" is a word we usually apply to people in much wealthier situations.
In what way are the practices unsustainable? Could you give me an example?
Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature
#120Part of me wonders whether Covid-19 was natures way of allowing it a little breathing space, there are many studies about the results of shutting society away for a time and the positive impacts it had on nature (in some cases) Yet, when I think to what has actually changed, I can't think of much. There were supposed to be more cycle lanes, more pedestrianized areas and less reliance on cars/transport and more emphas…
There are hundreds of millions of people in the USA and UK who are overweight, and another hundred million who aren't. From those kind of numbers you ought to be able to produce at least a couple of million people who dieted, exercised, lost weight, and kept it off long term. Where are they? There are decades of things like Weight Watchers and Slim Fast, there ought to be well-honed methods that work and studies of successes, Weight Watchers crows about a 5% weight loss. That's 300lbs down to 285lbs.
"Fat is officially incurable" - https://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/fat-officially-incurable... - basically anyone who loses weight, regains it. The very few who don't turn it into an obsession, or have surgery.
> "yet the truth is, the population is too lazy/fat for that"
"5 Baffling Lies Society Told You About Fat People" - https://www.cracked.com/article_22964_5-baffling-lies-societ... - "Think the problem is that people these days have simply gotten too lazy? Well, studies show that in parts of the country where physical activity increased, so did obesity. (Note: People who exercise tend to eat more.) Oh, and your "lazy" Western lifestyle burns the same amount of energy as that of your hunter-gatherer ancestors.".
Is that the truth or did you just make it up because it sounds simple and makes you feel morally superior?
> "Can anyone detail any global significant change since we were aware of the "climate emergency"?"
The UK has gone from almost no wind electricity generation to 30% and peaking over 50%.
> "for no benefit to nature whatsoever."
Define? This is suspiciously similar to the "HuMaNs ArE A CanCer" nihilist nonsense that somehow vaguely classifies humans as "outside nature" and therefore that things which benefit humans are "bad" and things which hurt humans are "good" for nature. Humans are nature.
> "We're still having far, far too many children who just consume for their entire lives and input/provide nothing of value back,"
What value are buffalo providing back? What value are plants providing back? What value are whales providing back?
> "And that will continue until the day humans are essentially extinct,"
That should please you, Mars seems to be your dreamworld - it's cold and there are no humans and no landfill, and that's apparently everything you care about.