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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

251–260 of 892 posts

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#251
post #41
post #9

> Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. > Wayland works for almost everyone... Oh good. Tell me how to get XFCE running with Wayland then? I'm not a user of X11 or Wayland, not really. I just picked a DE that I liked. I guess my choice puts me firmly in the anti-Wayland camp though since I won't be running it anytime soon.

Someone in the XFCE camp needs to roll up their sleeves and get it working. This is not an easy task, KDE and GNOME have been at it for many years, but it is doable. I don't use or follow XFCE myself, but a quick search suggests the developers are working on it, though they won't get there anytime soon. (most of what I can find seems to be from 4+ years ago, so not anytime soon could be yesterday for all I know)

You know, unlike GNOME, rolling up sleeves with XFCE4 doesn't come with any kind of Red Hat/IBM sponsorship whatsoever.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? (genuine question from a desktop user using wayland right now)

Does taking a screenshot work for you?

I started using Wayland a couple of days ago and screenshots in Gnome work the same way as they do on my X11 desktop. In a word, yes.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#253

i like i3. i don't care to know about sway. I'll stay on Xorg until there's a gun to my head, thanks.

Sway is literally "i3, but Wayland". It is a drop in replacement.

More like i3-gaps, and other capabilities, such as monitors , keyboard settings, idle/lock included.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#254
post #217
post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

The question is then: is this isolation even useful? There are a lot of attacks that still exist when a program runs in userspace and that are not inherent to GUI programs. Example: creating an executable named sudo somewhere in a directory that is in your ~ and PATH.

Sure, but if you’re under X11, then a flatpak or any other jailed application can still trivially elevate itself to root.

Jailing applications only has a meaningful benefit whatsoever under wayland, as a flatpak without bind-home under wayland is actually properly sandboxed. Still a rare case, but at least it’s possible and getting even somewhat common.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#255
Just an observation, here's something that's a result of the fact that self-published opinion pieces on the Internet don't necessarily go through an editorial process before publication:

> It has a real cost, you know, being a dick to maintainers. [...] We’re out here trying to make things better [...] We’ve sacrificed our spare time to build this for you for free.

Yes, but who are you addressing? There's a subtext here that discouraging behavior can be such a burden that it takes away resources from the project. Perhaps it takes such a toll that a maintainer just calls it quits on the whole thing. That makes sense when addressing your fans who are consuming your work but nonetheless burdening you. To a detractor, who isn't using Wayland and doesn't want Wayland to succeed, discouragement leading to burnout is not failure condition. This logical slip is probably the result of leaning too heavily on the vaccine metaphor.

Now playing Devil's advocate (contra this piece):

In the real world, anti-vaxxers benefit no matter what they believe. But that's not so in Wayland v. X11 duel, which is not only a genuine a matter of preference, but there are actually shades of a zero-sum relationship here. The idea of Wayland, like a vaccine, being good for you whether you know it or not doesn't hold up. If you're in the X11 camp and oppose Wayland, improvement to the Wayland ecosystem isn't bringing nice things like herd immunity. It's actually a threat if your vision is one where X11 remains entrenched for the foreseeable future. It would also be really easy for a detractor of Wayland to use this post for ammunition, for example labelling this as self-aggrandizement and maybe claiming that there's an attitude where Waylanders see themselves as saviors, rescuing others from a plight they don't even agree exists, and that it's an attitude indicative of the project as a whole.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#256
post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

I get the frustration, but fundamentally, screen sharing and screenshots are so integral to my daily use that I couldn't even consider wayland. For nearly any remote worker at this point, at least the ones I work with, this is fundamentally true.

In 2021, screen sharing and screenshots are table stakes.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#258
> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you.

This argument is plain and simple abuse behavior. The people criticising Wayland never asked you to make free shit. They have no obligation to like it or to not voice their concerns when they might be impacted by your free shit. If you don't want to hear criticism of your free shit, get off the internet.

> It has a real cost, you know, being a dick to maintainers.

Same goes for being a dick to your users (especially those who didn't choose to be your users) or random people on the internet.

> [...] Most of the lies you’ve heard about ways that it’s broken are just that: lies

Ah yes, shouting "fake news" works so well.

I'm not even anti-Wayland really - it simply does not provide any advantages for me at the moment while breaking some things - but this kind of attitude makes me not want to touch it.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#259
post #223
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

It is actually one of the big, unfixable, conceptual problems of Wayland that all the effort is duplicated in each compositor. The Wayland concept pushes out most of the work to the DEs. That of course will result in tons of predictable inconsistency, incompatibility, bugs, delays, consolidations and general pain. Wayland devs are then generally in the lazy "worksforme, use sway (or whatever)" position while the user…

But isn't this the point of wlroots?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can fix the problematic service with: systemctl edit service-name [Service] TimeoutStopSec=XX You can also override the global default DefaultTimeoutStopSec in /etc/systemd/system.conf.

See, this right here is the (technical, not social) problem with systemd. Whether anyone points out that systemd is doing something stupid and wrong, the systemd shills' answer is always "well duh what did you expect when you didn't modify one of the hundred default configuration files to have `[stupidshit] = false`! You brought this on yourself!" And you're lucky if that even works to solve the problem.

What's stupid or broken in waiting for a service to shutdown?

I mean Slackware used to send a SIGTERM to all processes, wait two seconds, and send a SIGKILL. Why would anyone need more? It's the Unix way (except it isn't).

If you disagree with the default wait time then you disagree with the default wait time. So what.

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