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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#41

Post by bluGill »

wayneftw wrote: post #9

> Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. > Wayland works for almost everyone... Oh good. Tell me how to get XFCE running with Wayland then? I'm not a user of X11 or Wayland, not really. I just picked a DE that I liked. I guess my choice puts me firmly in the anti-Wayland camp though since I won't be running it anytime soon.

Someone in the XFCE camp needs to roll up their sleeves and get it working. This is not an easy task, KDE and GNOME have been at it for many years, but it is doable.

I don't use or follow XFCE myself, but a quick search suggests the developers are working on it, though they won't get there anytime soon. (most of what I can find seems to be from 4+ years ago, so not anytime soon could be yesterday for all I know)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#42

Post by phone8675309 »

kuschku wrote: post #25
freeone3000 wrote: post #13

I'm really tired of this Wayland horseshit. If there was an actual reason for users to use it, fine, but instead it breaks forwarding and vnc and xclip, and for what exactly? Why should I upgrade?

Wayland improves: - Multi-Monitor support (especially with multiple different resolutions) - HiDPI support (even if some of your programs haven’t been updated for that yet) Now why does wayland break xclip and vnc? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or…

>Under X11, you are basically running every application with root, always.

This is not even remotely true. You are able to snoop on events that use the X server - typically programs run as your user or programs that you have chosen to forward to your X server.

You are correct that the X server gets all events from all clients and therefore can log keys.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#43

Post by kuschku »

superkuh wrote: post #32
kuschku wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland improves: - Multi-Monitor support (especially with multiple different resolutions) - HiDPI support (even if some of your programs haven’t been updated for that yet) Now why does wayland break xclip and vnc? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or…

That's because PCs aren't phones and the software run on PCs does not attack the user. This is different from phones where the user is the product to be sold and almost all software is antagonistic but it doesn't apply to the linux desktop, yet. edit : I completely agree about "electron applications". Those are not native applications on linux, those are badly made backdoors using browser runtimes. I do not run them…

> but it doesn't apply to the linux desktop, yet.

Microsoft has VSCode, Skype and Teams on linux, Zoom has a native linux client.

With modern electron apps, often even being able to be updated remotely, you have to start treating more and more software as hostile as well.

That said, even if you’d only have trustful software, you should still sandbox it, as if there’d be an RCE in a chat client you wouldn’t want the attacker to be able to elevate itself to root.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#46

Post by lmm »

kuschku wrote: post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

> Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly.

Sounds like a roughly equivalent situation either way? Personally I'd sooner use only Qt applications than have to use Gnome.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#49

Post by geofft »

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time [...]

> We’ve sacrificed our spare time to build this for you for free. [...]

> You’re gonna maintain Xorg yourself, because we’re not going to volunteer our time, sacrifice our weekends and evenings staying up late for your sake [...]

This surprises me - I thought Wayland was developed mostly by people who were being paid full-time to develop it, at the various commercial Linux vendors (Red Hat etc.) or companies like Collabora. (And I thought the same was true of Xorg, and has been true for many years.) Is it really true that Wayland is primarily volunteer-driven?

It's true that most people are nonetheless getting Wayland for free (and, to be absolutely clear, harassment is unacceptable even to people being paid to work on the project), but the dynamics of the situation change a lot based on whether the developers are volunteers or paid by some company.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#50

Post by creata »

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?
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