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Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts

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Re: Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts

#141

Post by TomSwirly »

wpasc wrote: post #104
tootie wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hygiene hypothesis still seems dubious to me. The notion that hygienic lifestyles can lead to a weaker immune system or microbiome is plausible, but I'd actually be pretty surprised if it translated into worse long-term outcomes like life expectancy. Being exposed to lots of pathogens can have some pretty big downsides. We're only just beginning to understand long-term COVID symptoms and it's possible we've missed lo…

I wouldn't argue that returning to hyper non hygiene would be better, but there has been a steady and remarkable rise in Autoimmune diseases, allergies, and asthma in the last few decades. Each of these conditions have long term consequences and complications. The hygiene hypothesis link to the microbiome and "training" of the immune system link is plausible and more and more research is backing it up. Moreover, give…

The American obsession with cleanliness dates to the 1950s, so I'm a little confused as to what your argument is here.

> that the amount of evidence that does exist

Such as? It would be nice to see some actual evidence and not simply guilt by association.

Re: Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts

#142

Post by TomSwirly »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #18
faitswulff wrote: post #4

There's a difference between being exposed to dirt and being exposed to viral diseases, though. Playing outside in the leaves will likely trigger healthy immune responses. Contracting COVID-19 may lead to long term health issues.

I think the hypothesis is that they aren't exposed to as many pathogens in general (due to increased sanitation/attention to cleanliness), not that the negative effects will be due to no exposure to covid (which doesn't appear very serious for infants in any case).

America's obsession with cleanliness dates from the 1950s, so I'm a little baffled as to why it would take 50 years to emerge.

Re: Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts

#143

Post by wpasc »

TomSwirly wrote: post #141
wpasc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't argue that returning to hyper non hygiene would be better, but there has been a steady and remarkable rise in Autoimmune diseases, allergies, and asthma in the last few decades. Each of these conditions have long term consequences and complications. The hygiene hypothesis link to the microbiome and "training" of the immune system link is plausible and more and more research is backing it up. Moreover, give…

The American obsession with cleanliness dates to the 1950s, so I'm a little confused as to what your argument is here. > that the amount of evidence that does exist Such as? It would be nice to see some actual evidence and not simply guilt by association.

Please note, i am not claiming certainty and there are studies that point against the hygiene hypothesis. I am just stating that there is a growing body of evidence for the links between household cleanliness (and use of certain household cleaning products) and microbiome disruption. And links between microbiome disruption and prevalence of disease. For the American obsession with cleanliness in the 1950's, two things: autoimmune is hard to diagnose and many suffered in silence for decades AND cleaning up a lot is distinctly different from the proliferation of chemically based cleaning products many of which containing anti bacterial ingredients. Many look at the trend of autoimmune rise starting in the 70's and 80's. Let's say you're right about the 50's cleanliness, the children born then might not have been diagnosed, the cleanliness trend started then but built up to have large effect over 20-30 years, and/or it took time for chemicals to proliferate into household daily cleaning.

I am NOT a tin foil hat wearer. I have an autoimmune disease and have researched the topic a lot. I am claiming NO certainty, just that the immune system is woefully insufficiently understood and that links with growing evidence should NOT be ignored.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/apm.12023

https://oem.bmj.com/content/74/9/684.abstract

https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200612-179...

https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.201707882

https://www.cmaj.ca/content/190/37/E1097?_ga=2.113661191.149...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01712...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01712...

Re: Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts

#144

Post by collyw »

scythe wrote: post #56
collyw wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's frightening how much censorship there is around non-consensual views on covid. Sure there are a few nutters blaming 5g masts, but there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of the way it is currently being handled. The Great Barrington Declaration has numerous signatories from well respected scientists, however it is dismissed, without any debate and lumped alongside antivaxxers and conspiracy theorists for takin…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Barrington_Declaration Just to save everyone time: >The declaration calls for individuals at significantly lower risk of dying from COVID-19 – as well as those at higher risk who so wish – to be allowed to resume their normal lives, working normally at their usual workplaces rather than from home, socializing in bars and restaurants, and gathering at sporting and cultural events. >…

Here is a challenge for you. Find out where the idea for lockdowns came from and the science behind those. (There is none - we just blindly copied an authoritarian regime).

Re: Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts

#145

Post by dang »

collyw wrote: post #33
faitswulff wrote: post #4

There's a difference between being exposed to dirt and being exposed to viral diseases, though. Playing outside in the leaves will likely trigger healthy immune responses. Contracting COVID-19 may lead to long term health issues.

You talk nonsense.

Can you please not break the site guidelines like this? We ban accounts that do that.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re: Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts

#146

Post by collyw »

rossdavidh wrote: post #99
addicted wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such utter nonsense. In countries which did allow the pandemic to spread healthcare systems were quickly overloaded and people died in droves, not just from the pandemic but also from not being able to receive care for other healthcare issues.

I think there are plausible counterarguments, but the results in, for example, Sweden look much like France, and the results in Belarus look much like other eastern European nations (which is to say, better than western European ones). Not that either Sweden or Belarus did nothing, but it does suggest that the measures taken by most countries, did not have an enormous impact, if any. Japan did less than most countrie…

Switerland didn't bother with a second lockdown and coped fine. Hospitals got full (like most winters) but nothing more.

Re: Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts

#147

Post by collyw »

dang wrote: post #145
collyw wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You talk nonsense.

Can you please not break the site guidelines like this? We ban accounts that do that. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site to heart, we'd be grateful.

The OP made an unsubstantiated claim with no evidence, why can't I call that out? There are plenty of things you could catch from playing in dirt that could lead to long term health problems.

Re: Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts

#148

Post by scythe »

collyw wrote: post #144
scythe wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Barrington_Declaration Just to save everyone time: >The declaration calls for individuals at significantly lower risk of dying from COVID-19 – as well as those at higher risk who so wish – to be allowed to resume their normal lives, working normally at their usual workplaces rather than from home, socializing in bars and restaurants, and gathering at sporting and cultural events. >…

Here is a challenge for you. Find out where the idea for lockdowns came from and the science behind those. (There is none - we just blindly copied an authoritarian regime).

>Here is a challenge for you.

Here is a challenge for you: participate in discussions for a whole week without changing the subject as soon as your claims are called into question. You began with the Great Barrington Declaration; you cannot simply Gish gallop on Hacker News.

Re: Scientists fear pandemic's 'hyper hygiene' could have long-term health impacts

#149

Post by dang »

collyw wrote: post #147
dang wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please not break the site guidelines like this? We ban accounts that do that. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site to heart, we'd be grateful.

The OP made an unsubstantiated claim with no evidence, why can't I call that out? There are plenty of things you could catch from playing in dirt that could lead to long term health problems.

We're trying to avoid the online callout/shaming culture here because it damages the container and destroys the sense of community. Internet forums all too easily turn into a war of all against all, or at least tribe against tribe. That's not compatible with curious conversation, which is the purpose of this site.

Fortunately you can make your substantive points without breaking the site guidelines. For example, if you had simply posted your last sentence here, that wouldn't have broken the site guidelines.

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a...

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