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Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

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Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#271

Post by pjmlp »

adrusi wrote: post #258
pjmlp wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GNU/Linux gets used alright, on IoT, servers and VMs, where the desktop is irrelevant. While Linux community can pat themselves on the back for having Linux kernel as part of ChromeOS and Android, they tend to forget it is hardly exposed to userspace frameworks used by app developers.

Chrome OS straight up lets you install Linux desktop apps. It runs a wayland compositor.

Crostini only works in some models, and follows the same approach as WSL, running GNU/Linux in a virtualized Linux kernel, completely unrelated to ChromeOS Linux kernel.

ChromeOS vNext could be based on Fuchsia and still offer Crostini.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#272

Post by AshamedCaptain »

vetinari wrote: post #268
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's the difficult part. You are welcome to try, though! I am quite confused by the fact that apparently changing toolkits to set a new property (a one liner) is hard, and creating a program to do this change for these toolkits externally without changing them at all is a "hack" (despite the fact users likely want to do this, as evidenced by Windows offering this setting); but on the other hand throwing everythin…

> I am quite confused by the fact that apparently changing toolkits to set a new property (a one liner) is hard, but changing them to support an entirely new display server protocol with its on set of problems is ... nice, clean solution? Because if it was just setting a new property in a toolkit, we would not have this discussion now. Ultimately, it is not just that; if it were, all clients would be Wayland native a…

It is just setting a new property. The discussion here I thought was what is required to distinguish a client that is DPIaware versus one that it is not, for use by the compositor to decide whether to scale it transparently or not.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#273

Post by mnd999 »

vidarh wrote: post #196
bipson wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And for me, this is the main Issue: belief People are flaming and screaming about their beliefs, demonizing systemd, Wayland and what-not with FUD, baseless arguments and non-arguments, because they "believe" these things are bad and must die. If I want to talk about what runs on my workstation as if it was religion, I install Temple OS. If I want a modern (and basically following sane/safe architecture decisions) di…

systemd adds a concrete and substantial set of features for me. I eagerly embraced systemd for that reason - there are things I don't like about it, but it gave me lots of new benefits that justified the effort. Moving to Wayland would force a bunch of changes on me for the sake of no functionality I care about. That's the big difference. Given it provides no benefits to me that I care about, I won't move until stayi…

Please let’s not get on to systemd.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#274

Post by adrusi »

jcelerier wrote: post #25
edent wrote: post #3

This is completely the opposite of my experience. I've been running Wayland on Pop OS since last year and it has been great. X11 had horrible tearing on external rotated screens - Wayland fixed that. Colour temperature changing works. Screensharing works just fine on Chrome and Firefox. I use it every day. Screen recording works with Gnome's built in recorder. I'm sure there are a few esoteric bits which don't work -…

> Screen recording works with Gnome's built in recorder. okay, but what if I don't like gnome ? e.g. I had to record a screencap of a bug of a software (that, uh, occurs only under wayland) so I went under weston and, well apparently there is also a screen capture tool but it is incompatible. On X11 I use simplescreenrecorder no matter the desktop (I mostly use i3wm or KDE Plasma depending on the circumstances). Also…

Screen recording was something that couldn't just be copied over from X when building wayland, because the way X does it lets any application just read any visible data from any other application with a window open. Avoiding that kind of security hole was one of the main goals of Wayland.

So it took a while for screen capture to work on Wayland. I agree that it was questionable for distros like Fedora to move to Wayland before such a critical feature was working, but now it works.

Because Wayland is a protocol with no canonical implementation, it is going to take a bit of time for all compositors to implement the new standard for screen capture. But gnome has implemented it, so has wlroots, and I assume KDE has or soon will. Weston is a toy compositor, not intended for serious use, so it's not surprising if it lags behind.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#275

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

adrusi wrote: post #258
pjmlp wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GNU/Linux gets used alright, on IoT, servers and VMs, where the desktop is irrelevant. While Linux community can pat themselves on the back for having Linux kernel as part of ChromeOS and Android, they tend to forget it is hardly exposed to userspace frameworks used by app developers.

Chrome OS straight up lets you install Linux desktop apps. It runs a wayland compositor.

Point is that, like Android, it eschews the typical Linux Desktop stack, because it is a garbage pile that reasonable people don't want to deal with.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#276

Post by bluGill »

shock wrote: post #241
scaladev wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is downvoting this and why? Face it, Xorg is on life support. The only patches it still receives are Xwayland-related fixes.

I don't expect a stable application to receive many patches. How many patches do you think Xorg should receive nowadays and in what areas?

There are a ton of long standing security issues. Which is why they are working on wayland: X11 isn't possible to secure as bad security is part of how it works.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#277

Post by pantalaimon »

jchw wrote: post #19

> Wayland solves no issues I have This is a common sentiment, but it is kind of funny. Because software engineers working for companies will know the struggle of trying to justify reducing technical debt, improving security practices, etc. but fail to see why these things are useful to them personally when the tables turn. Wayland indeed “breaks a lot of shit” but it’s not an accident or done due to incompetence. Als…

> Also, it’s worth noting that since there is not one Wayland server the way there is one Xorg server, that not all of this applies evenly.

This is what killed XMPP and it's likely to kill Wayland too.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#278

Post by swiley »

dbrgn wrote: post #23

This is absurd. Author claims that "Wayland breaks automation software". They then use the "py37-autokey" tool as an example. Autokey uses Xorg APIs for key handling. Of course this is not going to work on Wayland since it's written for Xorg and not for Wayland. The author is probably the type of person that buys an AMD graphics card, and then complains that AMD "breaks" software that's based on CUDA...

Automation software like that will never work on wayland (certainly not across different compositors) since it violates the security model.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#279

Post by vetinari »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #272
vetinari wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am quite confused by the fact that apparently changing toolkits to set a new property (a one liner) is hard, but changing them to support an entirely new display server protocol with its on set of problems is ... nice, clean solution? Because if it was just setting a new property in a toolkit, we would not have this discussion now. Ultimately, it is not just that; if it were, all clients would be Wayland native a…

It is just setting a new property. The discussion here I thought was what is required to distinguish a client that is DPIaware versus one that it is not, for use by the compositor to decide whether to scale it transparently or not.

It's not just setting a new property. Meanwhile, today, you have clients that are dpi aware and are not setting the property. And they all will be out in the wild for an undetermined amount of time (because stuff works for the application developers, why bother?). If you do not handle them anyway, your users will complain that your desktop is broken.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#280

Post by LeonM »

michaelmrose wrote: post #86
LeonM wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy sh... I've been battling this for YEARS now on X11. I'll try Wayland and see if it's better

If that doesn't why not get all high dpi hardware

I run a 15" 4K laptop, next to a 42" 4K monitor.

For the external monitor to have the same dpi as the laptop, it would need to be a 16K resolution monitor.

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