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Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

bbc.com

41–50 of 130 posts

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not an either or question. A devastated nature will also lead to less prosperity. We’re more in the realm of takin on debt we can never pay back.

It was framed as an either-or choice in the headline. Between nature and prosperity - I’d absolutely pick prosperity; my hopes are that we’ll come full circle and use prosperity to repair nature (green tech and all that), so that perhaps ecologically destructive actions taken during the last few centuries will be more of a loan from nature to us than a permanent grant.

The enlightened caveman, after whacking some other poor guy upside the head with a big club: "My hope is to use this food I took from you to develop new medical technologies to fix your shattered skull. This is more of a loan than a grant."

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#43
post #14
post #8

There's no two ways about it: economic growth means more ecological damage. Technology will not save us. IMO the only way to mitigate the onslaught of climate change is to do a controlled contraction of the world economy. If we do not do this willingly, nature will force it upon us.

We need to stop pretending that nature will survive. Once you start treating the natural world as just another finite resource all sorts of policies become common sense. For example an oxygen tax to keep enough land set aside for plants of some description. Or better yet, fusion based co2 scrubbers.

Nature will survive. Plants might not, humans definitely won't, but given the extremes at which we've found life on Earth it's obvious something will, even if it's just bacterial colonies in hydrothermal vents deep under the ocean.

Life... uh.. finds a way.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#44
post #28
post #5

Crapping on nature isn't new for our species. As an example consider how we deforested Europe over the last five centuries, or drove boney whale species to the brink of extinction. The difference this time (with severe climate change) is that actually might upset our way of life. Maybe it's a lesson we need to learn.

It is not new for any species. Others just have no means to reason about it.

I don't think any other species has upset the ecological balance to such an extent that it becomes unlivable for them

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#45
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, you first. Being less facetious, we can grow the economy while reducing the resources we require with the right incentives in place.

I have already started doing it: less travel, less dining out (or take out), and generally spending less money. More work is to be done on household energy consumption and water consumption, but that's coming.

The most impactful thing you could do is refrain from reproducing, but that's generally not a popular suggestion.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#46
post #5

Crapping on nature isn't new for our species. As an example consider how we deforested Europe over the last five centuries, or drove boney whale species to the brink of extinction. The difference this time (with severe climate change) is that actually might upset our way of life. Maybe it's a lesson we need to learn.

Although humanity sucks for centuries, we could make the argument, that the 20th century was the century where there was more done for the environment than in the last millennia. Many species that were considered displaced or even extinct have returned to their natural habitat and reclaimed their native land. Science and education showed us the right way forward, making cities way cleaner than ever before. I do not k…

Also there is more forest than before.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#47
I mean, one of the interesting changes that's soon happening is the transition from ICE to electric cars. I think the core issue is the concept of cars themselves. Storing them all over the road (they are everywhere!), people using them for very short journeys, their accessibility/cheapness to practically anyone and how much our society relies on them each and every day, even at the cost of the beloved hedgehogs which are being squished day in, day out (or badgers/roadkill I see frequently, they just can't compete with our death machines).

Electric cars will rapidly slow the pace of life down; with them taking longer to charge, adaptions will be required since you can't fill them in in 2 minutes like an ICE car.

Yet, I am not convinced shifting the burden to electricity completely solves the equation; the demand for battery production and development, the depletion of the batteries and mining for lithium itself is just shifting the problem elsewhere.

Humans need to drive less, consume less and expect less. Yet the global economy is based on consumption; as I write this comment on my computer consuming internet/electricity, buying food (relying on transport for that!) etc etc.

8 billion humans is not compatible with "nature", we've overtaken nature. Our species must be limited to a maximum population and the rest be culled; we did it with the minks due to Covid-19.

Then again, suggesting we cull humans is seen as barbaric but cutting the heads off billions of chickens is okay, apparently, so people can drive to McDonald's and get their 5 nuggets because "capitalism". McDonald's should be illegal if we are to take nature seriously, yet no human wants to make sacrifices "for the greater good".

Maybe we deserve to be the chickens for once.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#48
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not new for any species. Others just have no means to reason about it.

So it's a natural phenomenon?

Uh, yes. No other animal species pontificates about living in harmony with nature, or preserving the balance, or anything of the sort. They're all fighting tooth and nail to survive and, if successful, outcompete.

We're only exceptional in that we're so successful, and that we sometimes contemplate deliberately limiting our growth.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#49
Well, if any government was serious about this, they could easily create new rules for corporations to follow - given that corporations are by the cause of destroying nature.

Instead, corporations are 'socialising' the cost of their actions. As if the consumers have any real options, when doing a daily shop, buying a phone, etc. Consumers are being 'guilted' for the actions of another.

Governments are beholden to corporations - it is governments job to put the costs on to citizens, while allowing corporations to act as they want.

I wish people would stop saying 'we' or 'our' as if corporate action to increase their profit is my fault. As if government is not complicit in the shifting the expense and costs on to those who they purport to represent but have no power to change the direction of discussion and law-making.

The solution is a/ not to fall for this shallow tactic where you are personally held liable for the actions of another, and b/ not to look to the government to help manage this situation.

Despite what you are told, you are not a citizen of a country - you are an autonomous individual. An accident of birth does not mean you need to support the tyrannical structure you find. It is illegal to use your legal name - it says so on your birth certificate. To do so is to be in dishonour, and in dishonour you are manipulated by the system.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#50
> The report proposes recognising nature as an asset and reconsidering our measures of economic prosperity. It is expected to set the agenda on government policy going forward.

LOL. That would be great, but, expected by whom?

And why now, from Boris Johnson's government, after hundreds of years of monarchs and governments choosing prosperity over nature at any cost?

The article doesn't say.

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