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Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

bbc.com

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Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#31

Post by sprash »

ciconia wrote: post #8

There's no two ways about it: economic growth means more ecological damage. Technology will not save us. IMO the only way to mitigate the onslaught of climate change is to do a controlled contraction of the world economy. If we do not do this willingly, nature will force it upon us.

You are wrong. The earth is getting bombarded with free (as in money) energy from the sun at all times. It is a matter of logistics and political will to use that energy to its fullest extend. There can be prosperity and nature preservation at the same time thanks to technology.

My sister is building an off grid house right now with a huge solar array and a tesla power wall. If all goes well she won't have to pay for electricity, heating or gas for the car ever again.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#32

Post by hot_fuzzybear »

nly wrote: post #5

Crapping on nature isn't new for our species. As an example consider how we deforested Europe over the last five centuries, or drove boney whale species to the brink of extinction. The difference this time (with severe climate change) is that actually might upset our way of life. Maybe it's a lesson we need to learn.

Although humanity sucks for centuries, we could make the argument, that the 20th century was the century where there was more done for the environment than in the last millennia. Many species that were considered displaced or even extinct have returned to their natural habitat and reclaimed their native land. Science and education showed us the right way forward, making cities way cleaner than ever before. I do not know how about you but I am glad that streets are not littered with human and animal waste and air is not filled with methane and pollutants from coal combustion. Sure, there were plenty of mistakes made (uhm..uhm...atom bomb testing), but we live in the best era in the last 100000s years. Only thing that I see as very unfortunate nowadays is that the environment become a politicised issue (in a sense that facts are neglected by both sides of the debate and are replaced by empty rhetoric and disinformation that is used for political gains and moral high-ground. The fact that there is even a separation into different environmental camps is the most ridiculous event in human history since that time a pirate became a pope!)

edit: repeated words

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#33

Post by hvasilev »

All technological revolutions require more energy and consumption. Remember that the infinite source of societal wealth is technological progress. If you limit technological progress then economics becomes zero sum. This cannot happen, it is a precursor to endless world wars and our inevitable doom by our own hands.

Prosperity vs nature is not a question. There is no path backwards, there is only forward. The only hope is that in our path forward we will come up with solutions that can fix the issues that we have caused due to our past progress.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#35

Post by ciconia »

throwaways885 wrote: post #12
ciconia wrote: post #8

There's no two ways about it: economic growth means more ecological damage. Technology will not save us. IMO the only way to mitigate the onslaught of climate change is to do a controlled contraction of the world economy. If we do not do this willingly, nature will force it upon us.

Okay, you first. Being less facetious, we can grow the economy while reducing the resources we require with the right incentives in place.

I have already started doing it: less travel, less dining out (or take out), and generally spending less money. More work is to be done on household energy consumption and water consumption, but that's coming.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#36

Post by wombatmobile »

rimliu wrote: post #28
nly wrote: post #5

Crapping on nature isn't new for our species. As an example consider how we deforested Europe over the last five centuries, or drove boney whale species to the brink of extinction. The difference this time (with severe climate change) is that actually might upset our way of life. Maybe it's a lesson we need to learn.

It is not new for any species. Others just have no means to reason about it.

So it's a natural phenomenon?

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#38

Post by rimliu »

konjin wrote: post #14
ciconia wrote: post #8

There's no two ways about it: economic growth means more ecological damage. Technology will not save us. IMO the only way to mitigate the onslaught of climate change is to do a controlled contraction of the world economy. If we do not do this willingly, nature will force it upon us.

We need to stop pretending that nature will survive. Once you start treating the natural world as just another finite resource all sorts of policies become common sense. For example an oxygen tax to keep enough land set aside for plants of some description. Or better yet, fusion based co2 scrubbers.

How do you imagine killing nature? We could not do that even if we declared is a as sole goal of the humanity.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#39

Post by LatteLazy »

ciconia wrote: post #8

There's no two ways about it: economic growth means more ecological damage. Technology will not save us. IMO the only way to mitigate the onslaught of climate change is to do a controlled contraction of the world economy. If we do not do this willingly, nature will force it upon us.

This is factually untrue.

Re: Prosperity comes at 'devastating' cost to nature

#40

Post by Veen »

xenocratus wrote: post #18

> Covid-19 has shown us what can happen when we don't do this, he added. "Nature is our home. Good economics demands we manage it better." I fail to see the link, can someone please explain? Is it that Covid-19 has shown us what could happen if we dampen our impact, e.g. less pollution, wildlife being more visible etc.

Yes, there have been lots of stories about nature "bouncing back" during lockdowns.

> all the types of social, economic, industrial and urbanization activity suddenly shut off, nature takes the advantages and showed improvement in the quality of air, cleaner rivers, less noise pollution, undisturbed and calm wildlife

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00489...

Of course, "dampening our impact" has also set our economies back decades, caused untold misery, and has been particularly hard on the most vulnerable members of our society, which is an indication of the price we'd have to pay to help nature bounce back in this way.

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