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Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

drugpolicy.org

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Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#221

Post by bruckie »

valuearb wrote: post #165
ogre_codes wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue this because I agree in many (most?) cases. But I do think there is value in taking a measured approach to the problem as opposed to opening the flood gates.

The measured approach is a problem too. You see it in marijuana legalization, where some state’s are so restrictive about licensing sakes outlets that legal weed costs more than illegal. How can that kill off a dangerous black market? Someone who is going to try heroin is going to try heroin. They can live a mostly long, healthy, productive life if they get clean drugs and needles. Where are they going to get that fr…

> Someone who is going to try heroin is going to try heroin.

Tautologically correct, but I think the implication here is that availability doesn't affect whether someone will try heroin. I have a hard time believing that: it seems obvious that on the margin, there are some people who would try heroin if it were easier to get (and wouldn't if it were harder). We can argue about how big that margin is, but it seems hard to argue that it doesn't exist.

(Apologies if that's not actually what you were implying.)

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#222

Post by TylerE »

umvi wrote: post #178
TylerE wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> highly taxed drugs will likely result in an increase in related crimes like theft. Even if taxed at 100%, I have a really hard time believing that will result in most in drugs being more expensive .

Depends on the location. Using cigarettes as an analogue... they are really cheap to manufacture, but some places like NYC tax at a rate even greater than 100% (nearly $6/pack flat tax last I checked, which means once you add in margin and vendor costs you are looking at $10+/pack which is brutal for an impoverished pack-a-day addict). So as a result there is a massive bootleg market where cigarettes are smuggled in…

I live in tobaccco country. Tobacco is actually quite hard to grow - it's very labor intensive and picky about conditions.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#223

Post by mythrwy »

valuearb wrote: post #165
ogre_codes wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue this because I agree in many (most?) cases. But I do think there is value in taking a measured approach to the problem as opposed to opening the flood gates.

The measured approach is a problem too. You see it in marijuana legalization, where some state’s are so restrictive about licensing sakes outlets that legal weed costs more than illegal. How can that kill off a dangerous black market? Someone who is going to try heroin is going to try heroin. They can live a mostly long, healthy, productive life if they get clean drugs and needles. Where are they going to get that fr…

Wouldn't someone else simply buy the drugs for the suspended person?

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#224

Post by pasttense01 »

valuearb wrote: post #165
ogre_codes wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to argue this because I agree in many (most?) cases. But I do think there is value in taking a measured approach to the problem as opposed to opening the flood gates.

The measured approach is a problem too. You see it in marijuana legalization, where some state’s are so restrictive about licensing sakes outlets that legal weed costs more than illegal. How can that kill off a dangerous black market? Someone who is going to try heroin is going to try heroin. They can live a mostly long, healthy, productive life if they get clean drugs and needles. Where are they going to get that fr…

"You see it in marijuana legalization, where some state’s are so restrictive about licensing sakes outlets that legal weed costs more than illegal. How can that kill off a dangerous black market?"

Look at consumer products: generics or store brands are available for all kinds of products yet the substantial majority of sales are for branded products. And here the generics/stores brands are fairly similar to the branded products. But in the illegal drug market you have little idea of the quality of that product--so consumers will pay substantially more for products where they know exactly what they are getting [in this case the legal products].

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#225

Post by pasttense01 »

ttul wrote: post #95
ogre_codes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drug trafficking is still a crime. Which is how this should be for many drugs. Though I would like a clean source for the occasional dose of LSD. Just... you know once a month or so.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Criminalization of drug production and distribution has been an abject policy failure from the start. Ending the criminalization of drugs and bringing all drugs into a regulatory framework that is guided by health outcomes rather than the one-size-fits-all goal of eradication is the only path that has a hope of reducing the harms associated with the hardest of drugs. You can't stop…

Tobacco and alcohol are two legal drugs. They have vastly more usage than any of the illegal drugs. They incur vast costs--including hundreds of thousands of deaths each year.

Why do they have vastly more usage than the illegal drugs? A major reason is because they are illegal--such as risk of arrest, poor and uncertain quality, hard to find. Legalizing them would vastly increase usage.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#226

Post by colecut »

trianglem wrote: post #219
travbrack wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think most people who would be interested in buying heroin in the store can already get it?

Not verified, 100% pure pharmaceutical grade heroin.

This is especially important considering that it seems most overdose deaths are due to it being laced with fentanyl or similar. My brother died this way

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#227

Post by neurotology »

umvi wrote: post #153
valuearb wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drug “trafficking” should absolutely be legal. While Decriminalization is laudatory and beneficial, it solves far fewer problems than outright legalization. With decriminalization: 1) drug users will still not know what they are actually consuming. They can very easily invest drugs heavily mixed with other drugs, or dangerous chemicals. This will lead to far higher levels of accidental overdoses and is a path to more…

Whenever I see these discussions I only ever see the drawbacks of restricting drug manufacturing and distribution and never the drawbacks of legalization. An honest analysis would acknowledge the drawbacks of legalization too. It's difficult to tell exactly what the long term consequences of complete drug legalization are, and I guarantee there are some negative consequences. For example, legalization might reduce th…

For people who believe that legalization is a net good, there is a tendency to view any discussion of the (very real) drawbacks as an attempt to maintain the status quo, which is causing enormous suffering, and is thus unethical. I myself have been guilty of this.

> Lastly, unless marketing is highly restricted,

You raise a good point. There is only one status quo, but legalization can take many forms. As an example, I mostly agree with the model presented here: https://transformdrugs.org/product/how-to-regulate-stimulant...

(See the "Balancing conflicting priorities" heading for some (admittedly sparse) discussion of drawbacks.)

Drugs would be manufactured and sold only by government-licensed operators, in unattractive packaging with prominent warnings, and advertisement would be strictly forbidden.

I also think that legalization and regulation can't happen in a vacuum. This may be an unpopular opinion in the United States, but I think that a social safety net (like welfare or even UBI) that allowed your friend to purchase legal heroin instead of mugging old ladies would be an excellent use of my taxes.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#228

Post by valuearb »

umvi wrote: post #178
TylerE wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> highly taxed drugs will likely result in an increase in related crimes like theft. Even if taxed at 100%, I have a really hard time believing that will result in most in drugs being more expensive .

Depends on the location. Using cigarettes as an analogue... they are really cheap to manufacture, but some places like NYC tax at a rate even greater than 100% (nearly $6/pack flat tax last I checked, which means once you add in margin and vendor costs you are looking at $10+/pack which is brutal for an impoverished pack-a-day addict). So as a result there is a massive bootleg market where cigarettes are smuggled in…

Go back to prohibition, liquor was quite expensive compared to legal liquor post prohibition.

And again, bootleg cigarette markets are almost devoid of violence compared to illegal drugs.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#229

Post by valuearb »

bruckie wrote: post #221
valuearb wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The measured approach is a problem too. You see it in marijuana legalization, where some state’s are so restrictive about licensing sakes outlets that legal weed costs more than illegal. How can that kill off a dangerous black market? Someone who is going to try heroin is going to try heroin. They can live a mostly long, healthy, productive life if they get clean drugs and needles. Where are they going to get that fr…

> Someone who is going to try heroin is going to try heroin. Tautologically correct, but I think the implication here is that availability doesn't affect whether someone will try heroin. I have a hard time believing that: it seems obvious that on the margin, there are some people who would try heroin if it were easier to get (and wouldn't if it were harder). We can argue about how big that margin is, but it seems har…

I would argue that n my sling hard drugs illegal leads to more involuntary addictions, because when your favorite drug is mixed with a much harder drug without your knowledge it opens a door you may never wanted opened.

Re: Drug decriminalization in Oregon begins today

#230

Post by valuearb »

mythrwy wrote: post #223
valuearb wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The measured approach is a problem too. You see it in marijuana legalization, where some state’s are so restrictive about licensing sakes outlets that legal weed costs more than illegal. How can that kill off a dangerous black market? Someone who is going to try heroin is going to try heroin. They can live a mostly long, healthy, productive life if they get clean drugs and needles. Where are they going to get that fr…

Wouldn't someone else simply buy the drugs for the suspended person?

Do people buy alcohol for teenagers? Of course, but a few highly publicized cases of people prosecuted for procuring drugs for an unlicensed friend will help keep it to a minimum.
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