Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022 • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022

#91

Post by woodpanel » Mon, May 30, 2011, 2:55 PM UTC

Sorry for this rant, but we germans are rather stupid by going down that road. we keep saying that the costs of renewable energies have gone down, but thats only due to massive subsidies.

Thanks to fukushima the green party is like a political Steve Jobs on steroids right now: they can promote whatever dumb legislation and nobody questions it. nobody talks about the coal plants that we gonna need to supplement this. it's astonishingly dumb of my people.

but as we germans have almost no economical education classes in our schools, we're easily fooled. as long as it sounds nice (i.e. humane, ecological, responsible, sustainable blah blah) anyone who calls for soundness is comitting political suicide.

Re: Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022

#92

Post by joe24pack » Mon, May 30, 2011, 2:55 PM UTC

lispm wrote: post #59

joe24pack wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Czechs and the French are most likely glad that Germany will become a permanent net electricity importer.

They aren't glad. The french can't even meet their own demand in summer and winter. They are importing electricity from Germany.

Sounds like good news for the Czechs then, Temelin will be running at capacity most of the time. Maybe reactors 3 and 4 which should be under construction soon will earn the Czechs needed export income, and keep the lights on in Germany.

Re: Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022

#93

Post by roel_v » Mon, May 30, 2011, 2:56 PM UTC

ugh wrote: post #88

Typhon wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people died at Fukushima ? 1 How many people die every year because of coal plants working perfectly normally ? 30 000 in the US alone. See http://squid314.livejournal.com/292620.html Nuclear waste is a bigger problem indeed, but using Fukushima as an argument against nuclear is both dishonest and stupid.

Expenses, not deaths, were the topic of discussion.

We're talking full cost accounting and deaths are a large component in that. (well depends on how many deaths there are of course, in coal plants they're a big part).

Re: Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022

#94

Post by pella » Mon, May 30, 2011, 2:57 PM UTC

vladd wrote: post #3

sapper2 wrote: post #2

Good move aka burning bridges. If managed right, this will enhance the development and use of better technologies.

Nuclear is the safest form of energy that we currently have. More people die from installing solar panels than deaths occurred in nuclear accidents: http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/deaths-per-twh-for-all-ener... .

>Nuclear is the safest form ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_accidents_by_coun...

"The nuclear industry says that new technology and oversight have made nuclear plants much safer, but 57 accidents have occurred since the Chernobyl disaster in 1986. Two thirds of these mishaps occurred in the US. The French Atomic Energy Agency (CEA) has concluded that technical innovation cannot eliminate the risk of human errors in nuclear plant operation. An interdisciplinary team from MIT have estimated that given the expected growth of nuclear power from 2005 – 2055, at least four serious nuclear power accidents would be expected in that period"

http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/docs/policy-briefs/201101_RSU_Poli...

Re: Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022

#95

Post by roel_v » Mon, May 30, 2011, 3:00 PM UTC

fgm2r wrote: post #81

jules wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed. Is this with photo-voltaic cells built with dangerous and scarce materials?

According to [1] photovoltaic energy might be competitive in Germany by 2012/2013 in regions with a lot of sunshine and by 2016 "in regions with less intensive sunshine." (I'm not sure whether "less intensive" means average.) These numbers assume consumer prices and no subsidies. For industry users competitiveness is expected by 2019. Hawaii: already competitive (2009), California: 2011 (assuming 3kW plants) Reuters…

This doesn't answer his question, but anyway: it depends on how you account for things. When you take into account the production cost and materials needed for PV, electricity from them is not a sustainable energy source in any non-marketing meaning of the word.

Re: Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022

#96

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 30, 2011, 3:03 PM UTC

pella wrote: post #94

vladd wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is the safest form of energy that we currently have. More people die from installing solar panels than deaths occurred in nuclear accidents: http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/deaths-per-twh-for-all-ener... .

>Nuclear is the safest form .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_accidents_by_coun... "The nuclear industry says that new technology and oversight have made nuclear plants much safer, but 57 accidents have occurred since the Chernobyl disaster in 1986. Two thirds of these mishaps occurred in the US. The French Atomic Energy Agency (CEA) has concluded that technical innovation cannot eliminate the risk of hum…

[deleted]

Re: Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022

#97

Post by roel_v » Mon, May 30, 2011, 3:03 PM UTC

jules wrote: post #60

john61 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the ongoing massive costs savings it is expected that within 2015 or so it will be cheaper for house owner's to produce their own energy with photovoltaic than buying it. (Without governmental support) This will be a massive game changer: Decentralized, DIY, prosumer energy connected in a smart grid. The private rooth area and climate in for example Austria is enough to produce 1/3 of the electric energy u…

Citation needed. Is this with photo-voltaic cells built with dangerous and scarce materials?

I think he's mistaken is saying that it'll only come from PV; it's for all forms of 'sustainable' energy (I myself wouldn't count PV under that, but the popular opinion does so I'm including it here).

So it's including geothermal, air heat pumps, zero energy use for residential heating (high insulation and heat recuperation in ventilation systems), etc.

Re: Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022

#98

Post by Tichy » Mon, May 30, 2011, 3:07 PM UTC

mixmax wrote: post #24

latch wrote: post #15

Germany is a leader in solar power. They installed more panels last year than the rest of the world combined. They generate more electricity from solar than Fukushima did. If they can further establish themselves as leaders and experts in new-energy, it'll make them even more disproportionally well positioned to most of Europe. However, it's a shame they see no future in nuclear. Seems like they are betting against s…

The problem with wind and solar energy is that you can't plan for when you need power, and you can't feasibly store large amounts of electricity. This means that wind and solar can't be the primary powersource, at least until the storage problem is solved which doesn't seem to be on the horizon. On windy sunny days you'll have too much electricity and on windless nights you won't have enough. There's a EU project und…

I don't think there is a physical law that says you can not store energy.

Re: Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022

#99

Post by woodpanel » Mon, May 30, 2011, 3:12 PM UTC

lispm wrote: post #48

mixmax wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with wind and solar energy is that you can't plan for when you need power, and you can't feasibly store large amounts of electricity. This means that wind and solar can't be the primary powersource, at least until the storage problem is solved which doesn't seem to be on the horizon. On windy sunny days you'll have too much electricity and on windless nights you won't have enough. There's a EU project und…

Germany is currently planning to build two HVDC (High-Voltage Direct Current) lines to Norway. They will provide us here in North Germany with Hydro backup. There is a lot of research going on in new storage systems. In solar thermal power plants, there is already storage. It is not that Germany switches over night to renewable. The shutdown process of the nuclear power plants will take ten years. The plan for the 10…

Who in Germany has those plans!? No one. Norway proposed them to Germany, to the Netherlands and Great Britain. None of these HVDC are currently even close to be projected.

Of course, they'd be glad if Germans elect a Government that will force it's citizens to buy the luxury of clean norwegian energy.

Re: Germany to be nuclear-free by 2022

#100

Post by xenonite » Mon, May 30, 2011, 3:16 PM UTC

woodpanel wrote: post #91

Sorry for this rant, but we germans are rather stupid by going down that road. we keep saying that the costs of renewable energies have gone down, but thats only due to massive subsidies. Thanks to fukushima the green party is like a political Steve Jobs on steroids right now: they can promote whatever dumb legislation and nobody questions it. nobody talks about the coal plants that we gonna need to supplement this.…

come on, another german trait is that everyone believes that everyone is to be fooled easily. People are not that stupid. Most just do not care.