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GitHub Should Start an App Store

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Re: GitHub Should Start an App Store

#291

Post by TeMPOraL »

rightbyte wrote: post #133
whatshisface wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's repeated very often that companies maximize shareholder value, but that's not really true. Companies follow the personal interests of their management and employees, in proportion to their power within the institution, which sometimes involves shareholder value.

Ye. The belief in the "invisible hand" is strong. Boards and executives are not more rational than employees in general. Why would they not do things because they e.g. feel good about it or want revenge - like they were some super human well oiled machine.

And here I though it's an obvious point. Board and executives are not more rational than employees in general, but are also as much - if not more - constrained in their actions. They can't just do whatever they want, not if they want to keep their jobs and high salaries, or hold any similar jobs in the future. The part where a company becomes an amoral profit maximizer is a combination of:

- Interests of the shareholders and other stakeholders, who most likely cannot agree on most of their goals, but they will agree on "money = good";

- Competitors who wait for the company to make a mistake they can exploit to get ahead, or possibly kill the company

Combined, these forces all but ensure the company has no choice but to be a amoral profit maximizer, or die.

A different analogy, that doubles down on "corporation is essentially an AI" view, but may make it easier to explain the main point: if you apply Maslow's pyramid to companies, most of them do not have their Physiological and Safety levels met. They operate in survival mode. Rarely, a company "feels" secure enough to ponder long-term visions or some ideals that aren't directly survival-related.

Re: GitHub Should Start an App Store

#292

Post by whatshisface »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #291
rightbyte wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ye. The belief in the "invisible hand" is strong. Boards and executives are not more rational than employees in general. Why would they not do things because they e.g. feel good about it or want revenge - like they were some super human well oiled machine.

And here I though it's an obvious point. Board and executives are not more rational than employees in general, but are also as much - if not more - constrained in their actions. They can't just do whatever they want, not if they want to keep their jobs and high salaries, or hold any similar jobs in the future. The part where a company becomes an amoral profit maximizer is a combination of: - Interests of the sharehol…

And yet this AI company can be undone by a single good salesman who's friends with someone in Purchasing.

Re: GitHub Should Start an App Store

#294

Post by warrenm »

pankajdoharey wrote: post #289

I think instead of Depending on Microsoft, there should be a Decentralised App Store, Github too from time to time has blocked many repos. Just in 2019 they banned Developers from Iran and Syria. One cant depend on Corporations to protect our freedom. If you wanna do it right do it yourself.

>there should be a Decentralised App Store

You mean like downloading a tarball and compiling it yourself?

Yeah - that is totally a Good Idea™

Re: GitHub Should Start an App Store

#295

Post by TeMPOraL »

whatshisface wrote: post #292
TeMPOraL wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here I though it's an obvious point. Board and executives are not more rational than employees in general, but are also as much - if not more - constrained in their actions. They can't just do whatever they want, not if they want to keep their jobs and high salaries, or hold any similar jobs in the future. The part where a company becomes an amoral profit maximizer is a combination of: - Interests of the sharehol…

And yet this AI company can be undone by a single good salesman who's friends with someone in Purchasing.

How and why? I don't get the point about salesmen here.

Companies are not perfect optimizers. Arguably not even that strong. If someone in Purchasing is willing to reward their buddy instead of picking the best vendor for the job, well, that happens. It's noise. Doesn't change the overall behavior of the company. And it only happens within limits - do it too much, and the person in Purchasing will find themselves fired, maybe even charged with a crime. If they're too good, maybe they can kill their own company - much like a sickness can kill a human. Other companies will then be more vigilant.

Also worth noting that companies strive to improve their process and develop various means of ensuring and enforcing accountability - this, in essence, is trying to reduce the "noise" of individual humans within the larger AI of the company.

Re: GitHub Should Start an App Store

#296

Post by ocdtrekkie »

rk06 wrote: post #270
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sidebar: It's incredible that Microsoft itself now uses Electron with Squirrel for apps like GitHub Desktop and Microsoft Teams: It violates every notion of how Windows apps are supposed to be installed, wrecks havoc with enterprise application security policies, and is just the sort of aggressively irritating silent updating garbage that makes Microsoft's primary users, businesses, irritated as heck.

Github desktop and microsoft teams are meant to be cross platform, not windows only. Teams is a competitor of Slack, so going windows only would be stupid. And among all other options, right now using electron is the most popular for cross platform apps. moreover, it also allows teams to have a single version for web and desktop

Sure, but the way the installer works has a lot in common with how malware works on Windows machines: Most IT protections are going to block it, so making Teams work in the workplace requires poking a lot of security holes.

Re: GitHub Should Start an App Store

#297

Post by fjabre »

forbiddenvoid wrote: post #194

Or we could just stop using app stores. Honestly, I've yet to find an argument for the existence of an app store that holds water. Let people install what they want. Provide reasonable paths to update and upgrade and cut out the middle layer. The layer of control that Google and Apple exert over people is anti-competitive. But the answer isn't competing app stores. I don't need someone to tell me what I can or can't…

I couldn't agree with this more. Less App stores not more. Have people not learned their lesson?

You'd think stealing 30% of the profits and booting apps off the store for no good reason would be enough.

Re: GitHub Should Start an App Store

#298

Post by fjabre »

criddell wrote: post #287
forbiddenvoid wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument really doesn't resonate with me. Like, if people want to download trash on their Windows computer, who am I to stop them? You can do that on your Mac and Linux devices too. People don't need to be protected by App Stores. I'm not only concerned about that, though. The standard 30% cut of revenue flowing through the app if it was downloaded from the app store is also an issue. In general, App Stores crea…

> Like, if people want to download trash on their Windows computer, who am I to stop them? I think that attitude was fine pre-internet, but these days we are all sharing a network and there's an analogy that can be drawn with public health policies. App stores are one small part of the strategy to help reduce the number of machines that end up as part of a bot net or other similar uses.

We always give up freedom in the name of security so so easily.

Why is that? Why does fear always win? Your argument is based on fear. Why do we favor fear over rationality?

You would choose a dictatorship over a democracy if it meant that you felt safe. This where that line of thinking leads.

You'd rather be safe than free.

Re: GitHub Should Start an App Store

#299

Post by fjabre »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #264
coconut08 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

all you need to do is look at the windows ecosystem vs the linux one to realize how important a software hub is. windows is a place where people download random one off pieces of software that may or may not be safe, will likely never be updated, and will sit and rot on your computer until the end of time, and are entirely unvetted whereas linux maintains all of your software for you, keeps it frequently up to date,…

> windows is a place where people download random one off pieces of software that may or may not be safe, will likely never be updated, and will sit and rot on your computer until the end of time, and are entirely unvetted We should tell all the people who have been using Windows for two decades about this. > whereas linux maintains all of your software for you, keeps it frequently up to date, manages dependencies an…

Anyone in favor of an app store like Apple's or Google's would trade freedom in the name of fear and security.

And you're right, it's worse than that. They're not even getting the security they've trade their freedom for.

Re: GitHub Should Start an App Store

#300

Post by criddell »

fjabre wrote: post #298
criddell wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like, if people want to download trash on their Windows computer, who am I to stop them? I think that attitude was fine pre-internet, but these days we are all sharing a network and there's an analogy that can be drawn with public health policies. App stores are one small part of the strategy to help reduce the number of machines that end up as part of a bot net or other similar uses.

We always give up freedom in the name of security so so easily. Why is that? Why does fear always win? Your argument is based on fear. Why do we favor fear over rationality? You would choose a dictatorship over a democracy if it meant that you felt safe. This where that line of thinking leads. You'd rather be safe than free.

It isn't about fear. The internet is a space we share.

Do you look at drunk driving laws as an irrational concession to fear?

The slope isn't nearly as slippery as you seem to think it is.

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