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Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

theatlantic.com

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Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#71

Post by VLM »

8fGTBjZxBcHq wrote: post #26
VLM wrote: post #14

The point of the article is to normalize that "americans" is synonymous with "urban new yorkers" and the rest of the population doesn't count. Clearly, rural mining ghost towns are familiar with the concept of slowly shutting down a boomtown. See also the rust belt cities which were de-industrialized about three generations ago, and continue a slow decline, or at least slower growth than the rest of the country, sinc…

Quick question where do you think the huge population growth in large cities over the last few decades came from? Cities are full of people who lived through part of those declines and left, or grew up in those places after and left. Part of what "decline" means in this context is "your young and ambitious people all left for the nearest very large city or NYC."

That population growth doesn't seem to exist. Certainly not in NYC graphs.

San Francisco was exponential growth until 1940, then flatlined since 1950.

Detroit and Baltimore were those destination cities until 1970 or so.

Huge population growth in large cities is a pre-WWII effect and its an outside the US effect.

Last time NYC had Shenzhen-like population growth was over a century ago.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#72

Post by ndiscussion »

JAlexoid wrote: post #63
medium_burrito wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the other commenter that it's a boiling point issue. Things looked ok at the surface but... - rising cost of living, propelled by foreign investment in housing, pricing out even upper middle class - more taxes - more crime, and less policing - shitty schools As soon as you don't need to be in the expensive city for work, it's like hmmm, why the hell am I putting up with this? People with kids may be slig…

If you think that a town of 200k can compete with NYC - you are deluded. People move to large cities for more than just the money* or the job. You are aware that there are only two places in the world to have globally renowned theatre districts? NYC's Broadway and London's West End. No periodic Osheaga can outdo music venues in Brooklyn. There are things that stick. Things that would have to move. Things that seems "…

Not everyone desires materialistic things, live performances included. I love live performances, but I think most people are not really capable of appreciating "top" live performances anyways - to them, a big mac is filet mignon.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#73

Post by ndiscussion »

JAlexoid wrote: post #68
Hadrianus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over a trash can, bury it in a hole in a park, carry a small bag with me to throw away, in a bucket, at a library or other public building, in a park toilet, at a Target.. Literally anywhere other than the public thoroughfare or someone’s stoop.

Except that the local "progressive" NIMBYs have prevented "a restroom being built in that new waterfront park". Then complained enough to bar you from going to that Target. Etc... It's considerably harder in US to get to a publicly accessible toilet, than in many countries that I've lived in.

Because they have a tendency to fall asleep drunk with a needle in their arm on the toilet, blocking access for reasonable people.

Personally, I never decided that we should put up with this. I don't recall a vote.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#74

Post by medium_burrito »

JAlexoid wrote: post #63
medium_burrito wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the other commenter that it's a boiling point issue. Things looked ok at the surface but... - rising cost of living, propelled by foreign investment in housing, pricing out even upper middle class - more taxes - more crime, and less policing - shitty schools As soon as you don't need to be in the expensive city for work, it's like hmmm, why the hell am I putting up with this? People with kids may be slig…

If you think that a town of 200k can compete with NYC - you are deluded. People move to large cities for more than just the money* or the job. You are aware that there are only two places in the world to have globally renowned theatre districts? NYC's Broadway and London's West End. No periodic Osheaga can outdo music venues in Brooklyn. There are things that stick. Things that would have to move. Things that seems "…

Awhile back another user posited in a discussion of "Why is Berlin so cool" and "Why was Portland cool" that if the cost of living is low enough that you can tend bar 2 nights a week and cover your living expenses, all sorts of awesome people will congregate- all the kind of people that are fun to hang out with, and throw good parties, and do cool shit- music, software, performances, etc. New York used to be affordable for artsy types per a former dance instructor of mine in the 2000s, but I suspect that is no longer the case.

I suspect that an extremely awesome scene can be replicated anywhere there is suitable mass of interesting people who can live cheaply. Sure, it's not going to be top billing, but for 99% of us, we simply don't care. Having a hundred different live shows to go to any weekend is more than enough for us, with lots of great local artists.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#75

Post by JAlexoid »

medium_burrito wrote: post #74
JAlexoid wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that a town of 200k can compete with NYC - you are deluded. People move to large cities for more than just the money* or the job. You are aware that there are only two places in the world to have globally renowned theatre districts? NYC's Broadway and London's West End. No periodic Osheaga can outdo music venues in Brooklyn. There are things that stick. Things that would have to move. Things that seems "…

Awhile back another user posited in a discussion of "Why is Berlin so cool" and "Why was Portland cool" that if the cost of living is low enough that you can tend bar 2 nights a week and cover your living expenses, all sorts of awesome people will congregate- all the kind of people that are fun to hang out with, and throw good parties, and do cool shit- music, software, performances, etc. New York used to be affordab…

Created - yes. Replicated? That's a stretch.

New York is still way more affordable, than many other places(a busy bar bartender can get over $100K in tips). You also have to realize that outside of NYC you need to have 1 or 2 cars per household and you need way less space for stuff in your apartment in NYC(product and service availability make it easier to depend on things "being there")

Portland is an outdoorsy city, barely a cultural hub - it's cool in its own way. Its appeal is way narrower, than NYC.

Berlin is literally massive city with political power and financial prowess. It could become another global center, but like London - it's its own thing. Very different to NYC.

(speaking from personal experience here)

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#76

Post by JAlexoid »

ndiscussion wrote: post #72
JAlexoid wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that a town of 200k can compete with NYC - you are deluded. People move to large cities for more than just the money* or the job. You are aware that there are only two places in the world to have globally renowned theatre districts? NYC's Broadway and London's West End. No periodic Osheaga can outdo music venues in Brooklyn. There are things that stick. Things that would have to move. Things that seems "…

Not everyone desires materialistic things, live performances included. I love live performances, but I think most people are not really capable of appreciating "top" live performances anyways - to them, a big mac is filet mignon.

Are you joking?

Live performance is art, which is opposite of materialistic.

Smaller and more niche artists sell out medium sized venues in NYC, while failing to get half occupancy in fairly large cities. That is a major draw, because even idealistic artists need food.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#77

Post by ndiscussion »

JAlexoid wrote: post #76
ndiscussion wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone desires materialistic things, live performances included. I love live performances, but I think most people are not really capable of appreciating "top" live performances anyways - to them, a big mac is filet mignon.

Are you joking? Live performance is art, which is opposite of materialistic. Smaller and more niche artists sell out medium sized venues in NYC, while failing to get half occupancy in fairly large cities. That is a major draw, because even idealistic artists need food.

I consider art another type of materialism, but perhaps my definition is wrong. I consider any kind of hedonistic pursuits materialistic (even if they are free). Consumerism in other words.

I'm not speaking of just money and property, but rather, anything which pleases our lizard brain - this includes things like tourism, sex-for-pleasure, video games, and novels.

Some counter-examples that I don't consider materialistic are: personal relationships (family and friends), pursuit of justice, philosophy, and also creating art.

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#78

Post by medium_burrito »

throwawaysea wrote: post #45
cronix wrote: post #28

I know what it looks like; I live in Portland, Oregon. In 4 years, we went from 3rd most desirable city, to 66th. They're facing a 17% budget shortfall and are getting rid of people in the permitting department which means it will take longer to get permits for new construction. We are in desperate need of high density, cheap apartments. We have a housing crisis. https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/01/20/a-key-indicator-…

Portland had amazing potential with its art and food culture. It’s really sad to see it fall apart for very predictable reasons. I imagine that all the violence in the name of politics and the homelessness/drug abuse issue will crater tourism. Once the Pearl District loses its draw, other parts of the city will feel the domino effects as well. But how can anyone help? There’s no avenue for intervention in a city wher…

Good time to invest in Vancouver, but last time I checked commercial real estate there was already doing well. Maybe Centralia?

Re: Americans Don’t Know What Urban Collapse Looks Like

#79

Post by KoenDG »

jariel wrote: post #18
blr246 wrote: post #5

>Instead, what kills cities is a long period in which their leaders fail to reckon honestly with ongoing, everyday problems—how workers are treated, whether infrastructure is repaired. Unsustainable, unresponsive governance in the face of long-term challenges may not look like a world-historical problem, but it’s the real threat that cities face. The feels correct to me. I lived in New York City for 15 years. Until l…

Massive investment and ever increasing market value of abodes is generally the opposite problem of 'urban collapse' - I mean, unless the bridges are falling down, which I doubt. NYC in the late 1960's and 1970's underwent a kind of urban collapse. Detroit underwent urban collapse and never came back. I think this is maybe what the author meant by 'we don't know what this means'. If companies, middle class and power f…

Or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0
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