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New Empty Units

jefftk.com

21–30 of 42 posts

Re: New Empty Units

#21
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not familiar with Thomas Sowell and realistically I'm not going to read his book to figure out why you cite him here. Could you at least give a hint?

Wisdom

So, how and why does reality never quite conform to the concepts in the article?

Re: New Empty Units

#22

THe last time this actually happened, during the Great Bubble of the early 2000s, developers built as fast as they could sell, to anyone who could sign a a paper. It didn't matter if anyone intended to actually live in the buildings. Whole developments were built to stand empty. And when the bubble popped, indeed, prices crashed. Also, stock markets, banks, jobs, income. Foreclosures clogged the market. Corporate rea…

This presumes home building rates in the lead up to the GFC were unusually high, when in fact they were at a 50 year low: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3569920

https://www.census.gov/construction/nrc/historical_data/inde...

Re: New Empty Units

#23

I'm suspicious of a plan to help the poor that depends on rich people making a bubble pop. Somehow the rich always manage to put their losses onto the poor.

I don’t think the idea is that there is a bubble or that there will be a pop. The OP is an argument against the theory that new units are speculative investments that lie empty. The suggestion is that if that were the case then there would eventually be enough supply that prices would fall for new or existing stock. That feels appealing to me. It also feels reasonable that converting existing buildings to have more units would be beneficial for a city’s poorer residents in general even if it’s bad for those who are evicted: the people moving into the newer more expensive units would only increase demand (and therefore price) for the other older units if new units weren’t available, pushing up prices for existing residents. I’m unconvinced by the idea that the rich will decide to move to a city based on whether or not there is a pencil tower.

A counter argument I find compelling is that if people are buying property as a way of laundering money or stashing cash overseas then they may not care so much about the quality of the investment and that this breaks some of the assumptions about market efficiency.

Re: New Empty Units

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This presumes home building rates in the lead up to the GFC were unusually high, when in fact they were at a 50 year low: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3569920

https://www.census.gov/construction/nrc/historical_data/inde...

This data at FRED is much easier to work with. As you should be able to see, there was nothing exceptionally high about new housing construction in the first part of the 2000s.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=AA2Q

Re: New Empty Units

#25
post #10

We have a huge contingent of what I call vacancy truthers here in Berkeley and the rest of the Bay Area. Earlier this week a former candidate for city government was opining that new "gentrification tower" - actually tremendously expensive and not at all luxurious studio apartments in a 5 story building -- were all vacant! Look at all these available apartments! But these truthers simply never understand the numbers.…

Meanwhile the empirical work consistently shows what anyone familiar with supply and demand would expect: more units lowers overall cost: https://www.slowboring.com/p/induced-demand.

Re: New Empty Units

#26
After spending so much time on this topic I always came to the same conclusion. Even when I made the most extreme assumptions it didn't change the answer. Just build more housing or stop building too much commercial real estate. That's it.

The truth is that Californians love expensive housing. They love having lots of jobs that attract people outside their city. They also love yelling at the people they desperately tried to attract. They love homeless people and want to support their drug problems. They never put themselves into the shoe of outsiders or even developers and care about nothing except their own selfish desires. That's what true greed looks like. It's in plain sight and until that greed is gone nothing will change.

Re: New Empty Units

#27

The analysis is so obviously wrong, I can't imagine any of this is real. It assumes that rich entities will buy property at high prices in a soon-to-be buyer's market. That they will not calculate ROI, will not predict market collapse and will easily loose money. The opposite, of course, is true. ROI will be meticulously calculated, bubble will not form. Development companies, unamused by weak demand will stop buildi…

There is a flaw in your argument. If there is no demand for extremely expensive luxury apartments none of them will be built. The brain knot of luxury apartments making housing unaffordable doesn't even come into play because no luxury housing will be built.

Re: New Empty Units

#28
post #2

I’m a YIMBY activist in my spare time. One criticism of my ideas I’ve seen is that building more housing in my city will attract more professionals to my city. Those people live in the new housing, not existing low income residents. I think this is because the shortage is so bad, and that these professionals would eventually displace residents no matter what.

>One criticism of my ideas I’ve seen is that building more housing in my city will attract more professionals to my city.

You mean all those people you built offices for? Why did you build offices for them if you didn't want them in your city? Ever though about that?

Re: New Empty Units

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land is priced at what the MAX a developer could make from developing the land. Short of completely changing everything about property development from the financing (artificially low rates), taxes (regressive), and development (zones) - there is no solution. If you could build more - someone would. You can't. And it's not like we can just change one thing. The entire market is forcing higher prices at every turn. 66…

This is lazy analysis. 1. Lots of industrial inputs are priced based on value they provide the consumer. That’s not what makes land special, and there are many mechanisms to have non-developers capture the value of land (cf. LVT, inclusionary zoning, impact fees). 2. Focus on developers is misplaced. There is no reason developers are structurally incapable of making their profits by building lots of units at low marg…

Greedy developers don't want to drive the value of their existing properties up, they want to build more properties because that is an easy way to double or triple their money.

Greedy owners of single family housing want to drive the value of their house up because they can't easily invest into a second home. A lot of them also love the idea of halting progress at all costs, even if it harms them or their children in the long run.

Re: New Empty Units

#30

I'm suspicious of a plan to help the poor that depends on rich people making a bubble pop. Somehow the rich always manage to put their losses onto the poor.

It's not an argument in favor of creating a bubble and letting it pop. The argument is that even in the most extreme scenario that building more housing will lower the cost of housing in the long term. Even expensive housing will make the rest of the housing market affordable.
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