Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS • Hacker News Board

Re: Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS

#251

Post by danjac » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 1:59 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #67

banana_maker wrote: post #21

Can anyone answer why python is a choice anymore instead of i.e. golang for saas applications like this? I previously worked heavily with ruby and I cannot imagine building beyond >1000 LoC in interpreted, dynamically typed languages. Aside from developer familiarity which trumps all other points. It's also significantly easier to dockerize a generated binary from golang or rust, etc. Some of my worst docker headache…

You have to reach massive scale before you’re going to see a significant performance benefit from Go, but you’ll see productivity wins from Django from day one. If you’re not targeting that kind of public scale and don’t have a large team, there’s a lot to be said for picking a mature stack on a high productivity language.

And nothing to stop you from breaking out specific services into Go/Rust where you actually need high performance.

Re: Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS

#252

Post by krzepah » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

mherrmann wrote: post #101

I don't get why people use Docker for "small SaaS apps" where "scale is not an issue". You can run everything without Docker to remove an extra level of indirection. I've been doing that exact thing with a very similar Django stack for years. Not once have I missed Docker. On the other hand, I have taken over SaaS projects where the (unnecessary) usage of Docker made it more expensive to host, decidedly more difficul…

"Just use the same Python version and a roughly similar PostgreSQL version in development and production, and you're good to go" -> And that's more time than it would take to re-use that Dockerfile and docker-compose that i literally wrote once and go to once in a while.

Re: Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS

#253

Post by mrweasel » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

neurostimulant wrote: post #179

mherrmann wrote: post #101

I don't get why people use Docker for "small SaaS apps" where "scale is not an issue". You can run everything without Docker to remove an extra level of indirection. I've been doing that exact thing with a very similar Django stack for years. Not once have I missed Docker. On the other hand, I have taken over SaaS projects where the (unnecessary) usage of Docker made it more expensive to host, decidedly more difficul…

With docker, I can move or upgrade the host server without worrying about compatibility of my apps. Before using docker, every time I migrate to a new version of os or database (which I do every 3-4 years per host), I would often run into small problems in some old apps that must be fixed, which took time because I had to dig into the app again and re-learn the context before I can patch the small issue. After moving…

You still need to do those updates inside your container. I deal with a number of clients who like Docker because it gives them “a stable environment” but they don`t plan image upgrades.

I work products based on the official Python Docker image, but the base image containing the version of Python they want was release in April and haven`t received updates since. Developers forget that releasing software as Docker images mean that they are now responsible for patch management.

Re: Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS

#254

Post by JeremyNT » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

mherrmann wrote: post #101

I don't get why people use Docker for "small SaaS apps" where "scale is not an issue". You can run everything without Docker to remove an extra level of indirection. I've been doing that exact thing with a very similar Django stack for years. Not once have I missed Docker. On the other hand, I have taken over SaaS projects where the (unnecessary) usage of Docker made it more expensive to host, decidedly more difficul…

Docker makes deployments easy. In almost all situations I've encountered, it's easier to 'git pull foo && cd foo && docker-compose up' than it is to install and configure a mishmash of individual services to work in tandem.

A Dockerfile may be complex for any piece of the stack. But now this complexity is not part of deploying the application. Each component has its own build process which is decoupled from the others. And even a really complex installation process results in a deployment process that works the same way.

If you can't see these benefits then maybe you haven't had to deal with complex software installation. Or maybe you haven't had to run the same stack on your laptop that you run in production. But if you ever get to the point that you want to deploy something in more than one place, or more than once to a single place, it really makes things much easier.

Re: Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS

#255

Post by krzepah » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

mherrmann wrote: post #245

Youden wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to pick on you personally here but this comment, like many I see on HN, seems overly adversarial and could have made the same arguments in a less combatative way. There's a lot of emphasis on your own perspective: "*I* don't get", "*I've* been doing that", "Not once have *I* missed Docker", "making *me* less productive", "*my* personal experience*" And an assumption that it applies to others: "Just use…

I understand your concern and agree that I am being extremely direct. It's not out of spite. On the one hand, it comes from my frustration with what I as an engineer perceive to be wrong advice. It feels to me like OP is using Docker because he read a blog post about it somewhere, never seriously thought about alternatives, then stuck with it and now recommends it to others, repeating a cycle where software gets wors…

You are making judgments about OP using Docker. But from my point of view you are a true pain to work with because you do not containerise your work. Anytime I'd have to work with one of your creations I'd have to go figure what you are using, set it up and make sure it works. That's a waste of time and you are promoting that very fact because you were unable to figure any usage for it. I doubt OP has only "read some blog post about it somehwere" It's literally wide in usage by a lot of companies. "People who like Docker often seem to be working in larger teams, which is totally fine and they're probably right to use Docker." -> it's actually about that, it is useful is scaling that's true, but it's also very useful just to share the env your software should work with. And I'd dare to say that giving a Dockerfile is now standard practice.

Re: Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS

#256

Post by michaelcampbell » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

mherrmann wrote: post #101

I don't get why people use Docker for "small SaaS apps" where "scale is not an issue". You can run everything without Docker to remove an extra level of indirection. I've been doing that exact thing with a very similar Django stack for years. Not once have I missed Docker. On the other hand, I have taken over SaaS projects where the (unnecessary) usage of Docker made it more expensive to host, decidedly more difficul…

Docker isn't necessarily for scale; it's for packaging.

Re: Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS

#257

Post by ketzu » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

0x426577617265 wrote: post #82

Is that sql docker exposed to the Internet or is there another network other than ‘web’ ?

As they are using traefik as a reverse proxy, the container is likely not exposed to the internet directly, as long as traefik is there, as it manages all incoming connections.

Re: Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS

#258

Post by 1shooner » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

Youden wrote: post #232

mherrmann wrote: post #101

I don't get why people use Docker for "small SaaS apps" where "scale is not an issue". You can run everything without Docker to remove an extra level of indirection. I've been doing that exact thing with a very similar Django stack for years. Not once have I missed Docker. On the other hand, I have taken over SaaS projects where the (unnecessary) usage of Docker made it more expensive to host, decidedly more difficul…

I'm not trying to pick on you personally here but this comment, like many I see on HN, seems overly adversarial and could have made the same arguments in a less combatative way. There's a lot of emphasis on your own perspective: "*I* don't get", "*I've* been doing that", "Not once have *I* missed Docker", "making *me* less productive", "*my* personal experience*" And an assumption that it applies to others: "Just use…

I think using "I" statements and referring to their own experience makes the comments subjective. They may be expressing a strong opinion, but they aren't stating it as objective truth.

Re: Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS

#259

Post by amelius » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

Youden wrote: post #232

mherrmann wrote: post #101

I don't get why people use Docker for "small SaaS apps" where "scale is not an issue". You can run everything without Docker to remove an extra level of indirection. I've been doing that exact thing with a very similar Django stack for years. Not once have I missed Docker. On the other hand, I have taken over SaaS projects where the (unnecessary) usage of Docker made it more expensive to host, decidedly more difficul…

I'm not trying to pick on you personally here but this comment, like many I see on HN, seems overly adversarial and could have made the same arguments in a less combatative way. There's a lot of emphasis on your own perspective: "*I* don't get", "*I've* been doing that", "Not once have *I* missed Docker", "making *me* less productive", "*my* personal experience*" And an assumption that it applies to others: "Just use…

Ironically, your proposal would add an extra layer of indirection to their comment.

In its current form it is very clear that it is their opinion.

Re: Docker, Django, Traefik, and IntercoolerJS: My go-to stack for building a SaaS

#260

Post by neurostimulant » Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #253

neurostimulant wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With docker, I can move or upgrade the host server without worrying about compatibility of my apps. Before using docker, every time I migrate to a new version of os or database (which I do every 3-4 years per host), I would often run into small problems in some old apps that must be fixed, which took time because I had to dig into the app again and re-learn the context before I can patch the small issue. After moving…

You still need to do those updates inside your container. I deal with a number of clients who like Docker because it gives them “a stable environment” but they don`t plan image upgrades. I work products based on the official Python Docker image, but the base image containing the version of Python they want was release in April and haven`t received updates since. Developers forget that releasing software as Docker ima…

Yes, but now I can do the update in a separate schedule instead of being forced to do it right there and then when performing host upgrade or migrating the app to a different host.