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Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

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31–40 of 215 posts

Re: Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

#31
post #22

Element/Matrix/Gitter is a great IRC-replacement and public chat, Mastodon is great as a decentralized Twitter alternative, IPFS is great for decentralized public file sharing. Default-public services like this probably have an easier time being decentralized. It'd actually be nice to see thoughtful integrations between these three IMO. The greatest advantage Signal has is probably doing same-day updates for all clie…

> Mastodon is great as a decentralized Twitter

Federated, not decentralized. Decentralized is peer2peer like torrents. Federated is like email where there are little fiefdoms like Gmail, yahoo, or self-hosted.

Re: Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

#32
post #24
post #5

A bit annoying how servers meant to be run by people themselves are written in awfully slow languages. Python for matrix server is a terrible choice. Even worse for home assistant. If it can't fit on raspberry pi it's useless.

I see this bike-shedding comment about the language choice for the reference Matrix server implementation in every single post about Matrix on Hackernews. Every. Single One. Millions of people use Matrix. It has been adopted by the French civil service, several German states, and the German armed forces. In a previous post I saw someone saying that American Airlines was looking at adopting Matrix for their employees.…

Its a valid comment. I tried to run synapse on a reasonable VM and it was unusably slow. Essentially you either use the main server or you are a large org that can pay for a powerful machine to run it. The average person can not run a matrix server.

Re: Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

#33
post #5

A bit annoying how servers meant to be run by people themselves are written in awfully slow languages. Python for matrix server is a terrible choice. Even worse for home assistant. If it can't fit on raspberry pi it's useless.

I can't take any of these server Python projects seriously. It's like mocking up a car in styrofoam and then just...releasing that mockup as the actual product.

Ah yes, all those styrofoam cars such as Instagram, Reddit, Bitbucket, Eventbrite.....

Re: Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

#34
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using TCP/IP used to not be a viable option for the average person either?

Sure, but what about in 1992? How much did you need to understand about TCP/IP when you got AOL? Very little. And what happened when you got online? You could communicate online, suddenly reaching millions and then billions of humans. So learning just a little bit about IP (let's be real, you didn't need to know shit about TCP) Compare that to a VPN or Tor. What do you need to understand to use it, and what is the pa…

Yep all it took was some usability products and it was easier... See what I'm saying...

Re: Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

#35

Yet another "Matrix isn't mature enough so just give up and use a centralized service" post that completely ignores the fact that XMPP is still alive and kicking. With multiple independent implementations (both client and server) that all work together pretty decently. We're never ever going to tear ourselves away from this death by centralization if we keep inventing excuses for why we don't use the federated/distri…

How much of the daily volume of internet chat-type messages do you estimate flow over XMPP versus alternative protocols and proprietary implementations?

Re: Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

#36
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this bike-shedding comment about the language choice for the reference Matrix server implementation in every single post about Matrix on Hackernews. Every. Single One. Millions of people use Matrix. It has been adopted by the French civil service, several German states, and the German armed forces. In a previous post I saw someone saying that American Airlines was looking at adopting Matrix for their employees.…

Its a valid comment. I tried to run synapse on a reasonable VM and it was unusably slow. Essentially you either use the main server or you are a large org that can pay for a powerful machine to run it. The average person can not run a matrix server.

This has not been my experience. I run three servers in separate VMs on a Lenovo T420 laptop. These laptops run for about $200USD on Ebay though you'll need to upgrade the ram and the HDD to an SSD, so the cost is about $300USD.

Re: Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

#37
post #35

Yet another "Matrix isn't mature enough so just give up and use a centralized service" post that completely ignores the fact that XMPP is still alive and kicking. With multiple independent implementations (both client and server) that all work together pretty decently. We're never ever going to tear ourselves away from this death by centralization if we keep inventing excuses for why we don't use the federated/distri…

How much of the daily volume of internet chat-type messages do you estimate flow over XMPP versus alternative protocols and proprietary implementations?

I think it would be better if you made your point rather than asked it rhetorically. To me your argument reads like 'internet chat is currently proprietary so it always will be' but maybe I'm missing a step you'll need to fill in.

Re: Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

#38
post #5

A bit annoying how servers meant to be run by people themselves are written in awfully slow languages. Python for matrix server is a terrible choice. Even worse for home assistant. If it can't fit on raspberry pi it's useless.

Because nobody except for HN commenters cares what lamguage it's written in. It's about as easy to use and flexible as it gets so development is fast and people can contribute easily and it's entirely fast enough if you run it on reasonable hardware (for proof see other comments around here).

The fact that it doesn't run on your toaster is probably a feature, not a bug. To get it running on a Pi, even if written in a compiled language, things would have to be stripped down, making the overall software worse - a for what reason?

Running a Matrix server on a Pi in your closet is about the worst thing you can do. It's slow, unstable, has zero redundancy, needs constant maintenance, is physically in your home, on a residential connection.... If the point were for users to run this themselves, something like a local NAS (Synology has 1-click apps, I believe) would be the lowest-end reasonable option, but the whole idea of running your own Matrix server at home is insane! At the very least, it should have basic redundancy for uplink, data and power, which are already near-impossible to achieve at home.

And why should servers hosted by individuals? That would be horribly wasteful and inefficient, as well as raising the bar for users. I'll guarantee you that anyone who has enough skill and experience running and maintaining servers will have more than just a Pi available to them and anyone who doesn't have that experience should really not be running such an important service themselves.

Re: Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

#39
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of the daily volume of internet chat-type messages do you estimate flow over XMPP versus alternative protocols and proprietary implementations?

I think it would be better if you made your point rather than asked it rhetorically. To me your argument reads like 'internet chat is currently proprietary so it always will be' but maybe I'm missing a step you'll need to fill in.

And I think part of internet discourse should allow to posit questions without actually having a big point to make. Why is it necessary to pontificate about everything?

In any case, if you want a point, whenever technical people bring up the technical superiority of X protocol or tool in a discussion, I like to ask myself this question. How many people actually use the thing that someone is telling me is so much better for the world? If it's so good, why is nobody using it for practical things? Have they used it before and there's a decline, or is it a new up and comer and it just hasn't caught on?

I think just asking the question sparks a valuable train of thought.

Re: Drawbacks of P2P and a defense of Signal

#40

Can anyone chime in on their experiences hosting a synapse server? I have close to a dozen people on mine (although we don't federate much with the network as a whole, I set it up initially for a couple of groupchats/DMs with friends) and I'm not even close to hitting the limits of the $5/mo Digitalocean server I put it on. Does federating with the greater Matrix ecosystem cost that much extra processing power, that…

Yes the federation completely killed my 5usd vps last time ive tried it. Ive been running synapse for 5+ years for about 20 active users.

I have it running on 4gb 8core arm sbc nowadays and i dont dare to federate. When somebody connects to a federated room with history and many users it explodes.

It seems future will be federated but with beefy servers.

Considering Matrix supposed to be the answer to decentralization... its mostly used on one main instance or in centralised silos like companies.

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