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CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

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Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#91

Post by [deleted] »

mdorazio wrote: post #52
didibus wrote: post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

These contracts are generally bloated, but if you've never seen how a $10M+ contract for things like this works you're probably thinking about it wrong. The actual development piece is a pretty small portion of the overall work. The bulk of it is figuring out all the requirements, wrangling legacy systems and data into some kind of shape that can either be interfaced with or imported, documentation, support (includin…

[deleted]

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#92

Post by ndiscussion »

KLexpat wrote: post #78
flunhat wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't we speak figuratively anymore? Because a lot of people who hear that take it as literal encouragement. The events of Jan 6 are one example of how threats like that aren't simply rhetorical devices.

The real question is why are people incapable of regulating their own behaviour. It's convenient to say that talking about hanging politicians encourages this behaviour, and contributes to it End of the day though -- why should my speech be held as responsible for another persons conduct?

Yeah, I just asked a question. When? I'm not asking anyone to do it. I don't really want anyone to do it. I'm comfortable. But I do suspect it may happen soon.

Unfortunately, personal responsibility has gone down the absolute shitter in the USA, hence why they are limiting our liberties - those only work in a society of nice people.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#93

Post by lazyjeff »

cm2187 wrote: post #71
klyrs wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made about a dozen websites in the late 90s and early aughts... most I ever made at it was 50k/y. OTOH, they worked and continued to work long past my involvement. Maybe it's a fair price for a shoddy website?

Modern websites are designed to blow up as soon as there isn't an active development team anymore. The docker image needs to be rebuilt from source, the cloud APIs get deprecated, etc.

Yes, that's a good way to put it. I've been campaigning against this trend for a while in any project I'm involved in [https://jeffhuang.com/designed_to_last/]. The toolchain is simply bloated, and pieces brittle. Many of the projects out there would not last past an OS upgrade.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#94

Post by stefan_ »

mdorazio wrote: post #52
didibus wrote: post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

These contracts are generally bloated, but if you've never seen how a $10M+ contract for things like this works you're probably thinking about it wrong. The actual development piece is a pretty small portion of the overall work. The bulk of it is figuring out all the requirements, wrangling legacy systems and data into some kind of shape that can either be interfaced with or imported, documentation, support (includin…

When did we have the last nationwide vaccination campaign, whats the "legacy"? Pretty sure that was when IBM still made tabulators.

I think you will find that if only there was someone in charge to put their foot down, you can do without a whole lot of these things. But that's part of the problem of course: the government contracting out is just a bunch of clueless people making up a wish list with a partner on the other side whose only inclination is to say yes to everything.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#95

Post by josephg »

ndiscussion wrote: post #40
josephg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government isn't a person. Its lot of people. And presumably the government people involved in this case assumed Deloitte (a well known, large consulting company) was trustworthy and capable. No doubt the Deloitte sales reps had much more experience swindling clients than the government managers had experience covering themselves against dodgy software agencies.

Yep, that's the problem with congress and parliamentary systems. They divide guilt over hundreds of people, so that citizens cannot plausibly vote anyone out. How naive and stupid are these government people? They've been swindled like this multiple times before, it was on the national news with the Obamacare website. They're supposed to be the best we have. They won a vote after all.

The US federal government employs over 4 million people. The employees at the CDC probably never heard of the problems with the obamacare website, let alone had the chance to learn any lessons from the people involved.

> They're supposed to be the best we have. They won a vote after all.

These mistakes aren't made by the politicians you elected. They're made by civic servants. Civic servants are employed from the pool of people who apply. And the belief that "only stupid people work in government" perpetuates this exact problem - because it ensures anyone who's capable of good work stays far away from work that could make the government more effective.

I think the right approach to problems like this is to route these decisions through dedicated government departments who are qualified to do IT work. The real question is why the US Digital Services (which knows what they're doing) wasn't contacted to create this website.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#96

Post by 300bps »

tidepod12 wrote: post #46
didibus wrote: post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

I've no love for Deloitte, but the one benefit they do have here is the ability to mobilize quickly on something like this. It's simply impossible to "hire 146 engineers" within any reasonable time frame, let alone get them all organized in a way that you can manage them effectively (and don't forget the project managers/scrum masters/etc that would need to be hired too). Deloitte, OTOH, has an entire existing busine…

That’s not my experience.

I was hired for a particular engagement with Microsoft years ago by a similar firm. Microsoft needed x, the firm had nobody so they put out an urgent call and passed me off like I was one of their long-time employees.

I think it’s safe to say nobody has a bench of 146 people ready to go at a moment’s notice.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#98

Post by NearAP »

bbeesley wrote: post #85
NearAP wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a 'software engineering' thing. If you look at it from a software development POV, then the issue is more of not having 'product managers' whose job it is to - understand the requirements, write the specs, basically champion the POV of the end user (after actually identifying the correct end user). Examples a) The article talked about the software not working on Internet Explorer (IE). Older people still…

Internet Explorer has less than a 2% market share in the US, so under normal circumstances (given the sacrifices you’d have to make everywhere else) not bothering to support is is often a sensible decision. When it’s an access to healthcare issue though you can’t really exclude 2% of users. That said, building something that works well on mobile (re your point b) but also works on internet explorer is a pretty tough…

>>Internet Explorer has less than a 2% market share in the US, so under normal circumstances (given the sacrifices you’d have to make everywhere else) not bothering to support is is often a sensible decision. When it’s an access to healthcare issue though you can’t really exclude 2% of users.That thinking is exactly the reason why this system turned out to be problematic. Even if it wasn't for healthcare purposes, bottom line is - you have to know who your 'actual users' are. Elderly people (60s and above) are still heavy IE users and so are quite a few government offices. If these 2% of overall browser users are the majority of your users or your early users, then not supporting them becomes a problem.

Re: CDC website built by Deloitte at a cost of $44M is abandoned due to bugs

#100

Post by AshWolfy »

tidepod12 wrote: post #46
didibus wrote: post #13

I just don't understand these software deals, the price is so high. At 44 million, you can hire 146 engineers each paid 300k for a full year. Trust me, you need much less to build something like this, and there's no excuse for it to suck so bad. I'm also curious, anyone know where the development actually happened? Did Deloitte further subcontracted out? Was it outsourced?

I've no love for Deloitte, but the one benefit they do have here is the ability to mobilize quickly on something like this. It's simply impossible to "hire 146 engineers" within any reasonable time frame, let alone get them all organized in a way that you can manage them effectively (and don't forget the project managers/scrum masters/etc that would need to be hired too). Deloitte, OTOH, has an entire existing busine…

This should have been started at the beginning of the pandemic, if this was a rush job then that raises further incompetence questions
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