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Businesses should try to be the best, not the biggest

joanwestenberg.medium.com

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Re: Businesses should try to be the best, not the biggest

#301
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I've been looking at how worker-owned cooperatives can be formed and work. The entry moats for tech businesses is low enough, and tech worker wealth is high enough that it really should be possible - or even common. One difficult part is that for the structure not to decay in the same way you're describing, you need truly shared ownership coupled with democratic decision making and that might be slower an…

I would absolutely be interested in joining a worker cooperative in the tech industry.

There's a lot of those:

https://ioo.coop/directory/clouds/ https://dna.crisp.se/docs/index.html https://autonomic.zone/ https://vebit.xyz/ https://komun.org/?l=en

The deal with a lot of them is that they want to stay small, and others want to be local.

I'm involved in the early stage of a new remote-only co-op. If anyone in this thread is interested, my email is on my profile.

Re: Businesses should try to be the best, not the biggest

#303
post #237

Shareholders and worker are always in direct conflict. Shareholders are always prioritized first. If your company takes money from investors, their wishes are always going to take precedent over everything else. And they want money. (Not that being self-funded is immune to wage theft. What we really need is more employee-owned cooperatives.)

> If your company takes money from investors, their wishes are always going to take precedent over everything else. i think this is a big part of where the "capital" in "capitalism" comes from. ownership and return on said capital ownership is the primary concern > And they want money. not just money, they want money as capital for further investments.... i am not an economist, but this seems to me where over financi…

>this wrecks companies and economies alike

I don't think it has to be this way, there was once more structural soundness.

A good reason to get more consistent with terminology where the capital in capitalism actually just means "other peoples' money" and everything that implies which is different when other peoples' money is not involved.

This never means that evil or greed needs to be involved in any way.

Even Mr. Wonderful is not evil or greedy except when he wants to be.

Those defects can be leveraged by capital or other resources to the same degree that beneficial characteristics could be.

Now the other resources I like to look at as simply resources.

When an entrepreneur makes a million after starting with $20,000 in wage savings that doesn't make him a capitalist to me even if he did it swimming in the same sea as capitalistic sharks, well though there can still be capitalistic lifebuoys sometimes too. They did it with their own resources, often with a rate of return which investing capitalists hardly ever get.

So as much as you would like to think of yourself as a capitalist, if you are just a wage earner or at the other end of the spectrum, a resource heir who is not deploying their resources at the time under other peoples' (hopefully) responsible management, I don't think so.

This really narrows the field since even the most capitalistic countries have only a very small percentage of citizens, especially among wage earners, benefitting the most from the direct use of other people's money, so it can drive entire financial systems to prosperity without including wage-earners.

Capitalism can be the best thing since sliced bread while still being out-of-reach for those who don't already have the resources to make it to the bread line.

It's not very much of a capitalist country if there's only a very small minority of citizens benefitting from the capitalism. Shadow of what it could be.

When a non-capitalist entrepreneur does take on funds from other people, that can turn them into a capitalist for the first time in their life. This is not always looked at this way but it can have some interesting effects.

They and their funder become capitalists together, and should have a forseeable bright future together but it's not supposed to be the same after that.

Limited runways, more consequential deadlines or milestones, new and different financial controls and more are often all normal expectations.

The requirement for good stewardship and growth of the capital as intended by the entrepreneur can sometimes best be unlike the handling of other key resources, bigger or smaller, whether cash or not.

On the other side of the coin the investing capitalist should take growing responsibility for good stewardship of the relationship with the entrepreneur that made it possible for the investment to be made in the first place. And good stewardship of backup resources if further capital deployment is intended, or to avoid the need for unanticipated capital withdrawl.

So that new coin can be utilized in the most worthwhile way possible for all concerned.

It doesn't need to grow beyond belief, but if it shrinks too much too long it's gone.

Either way financial failures can occur that would not have to happen.

So I always prefer value-added action over pure financial positioning.

That way the bigger it gets more wealth can actually be created compared to that banked, as opposed to merely taking a cut when previously existing wealth is just creatively reshuffled.

Re: Businesses should try to be the best, not the biggest

#304
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing this argument misses is that much of economic growth comes not from increasing consumption, but from making that consumption more efficient.

Do you have any data to back this claim? Because Jevon's Paradox is a real, observed phenomenon. In reality, the only thing our economies optimize for is profit . Sometimes profit comes from reducing costs or increasing efficiency. Other times it comes from manipulating consumer psychology. Or did you think that Red Bull cans are tall and skinny because that's somehow an efficient use of aluminum? [1] https://en.wiki…

I think in a Jevon situation where there is a game-changing technology jump in a consumable commodity, there will be pent-up demand being expressed at the same time better efficiency means prices can decline and profits can rise simultaneously. This can be more sustainable if these factors are better in balance to begin with and stay that way. The improved efficiency is then enjoyed and absorbed into the regular operation of everyone involved and soon or eventually becomes the new normal. Ideally the companies never need to go back to the old normal which may likely not be very economically viable any more so that becomes completely forgotten.

But with growth beyond a certain point, cash flow becomes so significant and so many fewer people are handling it that the room for misguided actions, not just unforseen but often hidden or obscured, can quickly overcome the profits from much earlier technology milestones which took much longer for the entire org to implement. Which can not be replaced unless more technology breakthroughs are forthcoming, but even when a steady stream of excellent new technology keeps coming down the pipeline it could still be a sinking ship. Then if only the top people think it's not seaworthy, or know what they've done that might make it so, they're going to completely deceive the rest of the crew as effectively as possible or all the lifeboats could be used up.

When it comes to building cash flow, profits, shareholder value, and overall company valuation not every economically sensible executive is going to pursue or achieve the same balance among these, regardless of motivation.

When a company originally thrives because the early talent can make profits that are good, it can be the firm foundation for what could be long-term, even exponential growth.

Later leadership which does not always have equal talent for profits will often have more experience utilizing cash flow itself to substitute as a resource for bonuses, dividends, and things like that when much needed technology boosts are not the windfall they once were.

The net effect is people make money for a while then the technology is wasted.

Because profits actually weren't pursued enough, and cash flow too much instead

Like when a huge company acquires a rapidly-progressing technology group but no more progress occurs after that, or progress becomes intentionally discontinued or even reversed.

Like a gravitational field so massive that it draws in other planets and absorbs their potential for continued growth, rather than leveraging progress using the overwhelming resources.

A smallco that made excellent profits primarily from innovation itself, looks excellent on paper because it is actually a good acquisition target. When absorbed into a bigco their impressive profits no longer add up to more than a drop in the huge bucket so focus ends up being placed elsewhere besides the profit-making innovation that was supposed to be so promising.

Re: Businesses should try to be the best, not the biggest

#305
post #85
post #36

I often question the motives of my company. It has only 100 or so employees. Has been in business for 25+ years. But we are on a continual drive to increase sales, hire new people, add size to the facilities. But it wasn't always this way. It only happened once it went public. Now we are working for the investors. They need to see an increasing return on their investment. Management choices are no longer about the cu…

Shareholder value above all else is what is important. Unfortunately, VC money needs to be returned to their shareholders too. It's a ponzi scheme and somebodies next big idea will be the catalyst for additional money and so on and so on. It almost feels like startups are the get rich quick scheme of the moment.

> Shareholder value above all else is what is important

At Evilcorp, we are fanatically dedicated to the mission statement and core values articulated by our founder:

"To bring ever-increasing value to shareholders and upper-level managers by harming our customers, employees, and the communities and environment where we operate."

Re: Businesses should try to be the best, not the biggest

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usury in a basic definition means lending money with interest, and the collection of that interest. [1] Lending money involves risk. The only way to offset risk is with potential gain - ie, interest. You're not going to loan someone a few million, knowing you might lose it all, and having no expected gain. If you don't have loans of any kind, you basically don't have a market. You can't form most kinds of businesses,…

> Usury in a basic definition means lending money with interest, and the collection of that interest. [1] Good. This is fine. So we strike various other non-sequitors from your original reply: > Not even attempts at communism have survived removing dynamic markets. Free markets, profit making, private property, incorporation for making profit (by providing goods and services) are all entirely orthogonal to the very s…

http://SmartestMan.Ca/bankmath explains that interest is not usury when paid at the beginning of the contract, only usury when collection is attempted at the end. If you borrow 100 and at the end, owe 110, you can't pay it back. that creates a mort-gage death-gamble where not all can pay. If you borrow 100, pay the interest right away, you owe 100 and have 90 and the banker has 10 with which to buy your products and let you pay the bank back. Musical chairs with money only happens when you leave the interest to turn into usury at the end of the game.

Re: Businesses should try to be the best, not the biggest

#307
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shareholder value above all else is what is important. Unfortunately, VC money needs to be returned to their shareholders too. It's a ponzi scheme and somebodies next big idea will be the catalyst for additional money and so on and so on. It almost feels like startups are the get rich quick scheme of the moment.

> Shareholder value above all else is what is important At Evilcorp, we are fanatically dedicated to the mission statement and core values articulated by our founder: "To bring ever-increasing value to shareholders and upper-level managers by harming our customers, employees, and the communities and environment where we operate."

Bingo! I imagine this is what Facebook's mantra of 'Move Fast and Break Shit' has matured into over the years.

Re: Businesses should try to be the best, not the biggest

#308
post #201
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ? It was like that way before the 'bourgeois' ever even existed. None of the examples you gave had the means to wield "the accumulated and monopolized power of all its individual members", not least because technological limits alone introduced massive logistical challenges to central control that made any empire of the time very much decentralised and dependent on the extent to which local representatives had thei…

That the Roman Empire was to some extent decentralized doesn't matter though - they had all of the power and were able to extract all of the surpluses from their vassal states. They definitely "the accumulated and monopolized power of all its individual members" -> 66% of Rome were slaves i.e. literally property! They collected all of the surplus wealth of their vassal states through tributes and had absolute direct…

> That the Roman Empire was to some extent decentralized doesn't matter though - they had all of the power and were able to extract all of the surpluses from their vassal states.

Yes it matter, because it means you can't treat it as a singular entity. It never acted as one. The success of an emperor depended to a great deal on squeezing just hard enough to not give anyone designs on thinking they could do entirely as they pleased, yet not so hard it'd trigger rebellions. There was no capability to prevent all kinds of slack in the system in every layer.

They had "absolute direct power" as long as it was only ever exercised with restraint, or in limited areas.

> 1) Since when did the Roman Emperors or the Feudal Nobility have any responsibility?

Read the rest of what I wrote. The point is not that there was an explicit, stated responsibility, but that it is inherent in that those who mismanaged their workforce faced a declining workforce. You point out yourself that a large proportion of Rome's inhabitants were actual property. Let them die, and the value of your property and the profits you can extract from it goes down. You had no ready source of replacement. A feudal lord facing increasing demands for tributes could not meet it if he let his labour force die, because it's not like he could take out an ad and have a flood of new workers arrive.

That is the relationship that capitalism removed. That does not mean the feudal system was good. It was awful, and capitalism was a distinct improvement. But it means a fundamental change in the extent to which the parties could afford to attempt to extract maximal value from their workers at all cost, and that was a key driver in making capitalism viable until further automation and expansion into new markets made it less worthwhile to fight to retain that pressure. But the dissolution of those bonds remain, and it means the dynamics of how capitalism deal with growth are very different - for both good and bad.

> 2) Again the Adam Smith: you're not counting surpluses. Economies create vast amounts of consumer surpluses. Whatever the capitalists are able to hoard away in their bank accounts is small in comparison to the value created by consumer surpluses.

Surpluses are only relevant as long as you have money to access them. As such, talking of surpluses is irrelevant without addressing what happens to pressure on employment and wages once growth hits a wall. This is the main point of Marx criticism of capitalism: That capitalism does create vast amount of additional value - he was a massive fan, expressing absolute awe at the possibilities capitalism created - but the inherent competitive pressure in capitalism means that capitalism will eventually start to eat away at the need for labour. That's a good thing for society in the long run. But in the short run, it means addressing how to ensure access.

> It's not a paradox that people are immensely more wealthy in capitalism despite however 'unequal' the distribution of accumulated wealth is.

You're right, it's not, because capitalism still has room for growth, during which it has no incentive to squeeze everything it can out of efficiency improvements.

It has no relevance, however, to the question of what happens once further growth is impossible and competitive pressures have to turn inwards and focus on eliminating labor to squeeze out ever thinner margins (remember, Adam Smith also argued that profits were "always highest in the countries which are going fastest to ruin"; high margins are a sign of inefficient competition)

Re: Businesses should try to be the best, not the biggest

#309
post #239
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That thought that continued growth is eventually unsustainable has been there since at least the 1840's. The core of Marxism is the idea that capitalism is the most effective method of increasing productive capacity, and that this is fantastic (the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto is fanboy-level praise for capitalism), until it runs out of room to grow into. Whether or not you agree with the analysis, the co…

I agree with a lot of what you just said, I think Marx was correct about the idea that capitalism requires the growth. I would state his thesis as follows: If you reward continued production of goods (which requires investment) with property, eventually you will run out of property to give away. I believe in the 20th century, this conundrum was resolved in enormous growth of what we consider to be property assets. We…

It's not so much that you run out of property, but that you run out of ability to expand your customer base fast enough to see fast growth, and the slower growth capitalists can get from external factors, such as new markets, the more incentives they have to look to internal factors to maintain their competitive advantage.

Ultimately that means addressing labour costs. For an individual capitalist it makes sense to drive labour costs towards zero. But if everyone does it, then their markets shrink unless there are external factors (e.g. UBI or similar) that counters the market-wide effects of their reduction in labor costs.

This is also why UBI is a "liberal" (in the classical, not US sense) policy, and not something the socialist left is very interested in - from a socialist point of view UBI is bread and circus to keep capitalism from imploding.

Re: Businesses should try to be the best, not the biggest

#310
post #177
post #58

I suspect the initial premise is incorrect. The purpose of a company that makes widgets is to make widgets. Nothing more. Some rent seekers realized that they could extract some of the wealth created by the company making widgets, and that they could manipulate various people involved in other enterprise to enhance and enforce their rent-seeking abilities. To that end, they have manipulated the various controls on th…

I don't like invoking the word 'rent-seeking' because it's highly subjective. The formal definition is extracting value without providing any. One could easily make the argument that all business investors are like this. Why act like it's just a case of a few people then?

I don't think it's just a case of a few people. Rent-seeking by itself is morally neutral, like guns. Like a gun, it's how you use it that determines if you're contributing positive value to overall society.

The purpose of the economy is also not the accumulation of wealth by a few people. Having lots of money is nice but it turns out it's nowhere near the most important thing in life.

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