University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty • Hacker News Board

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#181

Post by bazooka_penguin » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

qzw wrote: post #162

hedberg10 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, administrate.

I don’t know if this attitude is a cause or an effect of the failures in the American education system. In many other countries, especially in Asia, teachers are respected if not outright revered. Their status is often comparable to medical doctors and other professional classes. So people who choose to teach are not seen as unfit to engage in other endeavors. But in America there’s this undercurrent of contempt for…

Doctors in the US make 2 to 3x what doctors in Asia make so thats not a good comparison. American schools are some of the best funded in the world so I'm not sure where the stereotype that teachers aren't appreciated enough comes from

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#182

Post by dls2016 » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

andreilys wrote: post #173

dls2016 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I disagree with your framing (only slightly), it has historically been the case that university is where the upper class spends their early 20s with the content of the education not really having a bearing on the direction of the students’ lives. I think we’ve done a pretty good job duplicating this model for the masses! Even down to the alternate justice model inside most universities. Perpetrate a drug or sex…

Even down to the alternate justice model inside most universities. Perpetrate a drug or sexual crime? No big deal, just switch schools and start over! Except when the police is involved which should be any time the law is broken. You make it seem like colleges are their own oasis of law and order.

I was trying to be factual with a little sarcastic flair. My personal belief is that there shouldn’t be an alternate justice system within the university.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#183

Post by bzbarsky » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

alfl wrote: post #170

So if I’m a hiring manager looking at someone with a recent degree from University of Leicester I have to discount their math abilities. Their alumni should complain that the administration is harming the value of their credentials.

> I have to discount their math abilities.

Do you? The implication that "applied math" doesn't involve math abilities is an interesting one, but doesn't have bearing on reality. There is a good bit of interesting, and quite challenging, applied mathematics going on out there. Including large chunks of what we usually call "computer science".

If I'm a hiring manager hiring for a position where quantitative skills matter, hiring someone who did applied math at a high level is absolutely something I would look for.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#184

Post by choeger » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

netrus wrote: post #66

choeger wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, it contains a kernel of truth. I personally met staffers at my alma mater that worked there after failing to advance in their academic career but being too well connected to not have a safety net.

I always considered that part of a much needed safety net for a professional where stagnation in the hierarchy is no option, but there are less positions at the top than at the bottom. So yes, a kernel of truth, but not necessarily a bad thing.

It is a problem. Those that are capable and drop out of the insane career filter that is academia get good jobs elsewhere. Others end up in the University. And there, they don't even teach.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#185

Post by antonvs » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

veridies wrote: post #149

waterhouse wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes, Minister" has an episode about a hospital with 500 employees and no patients: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAk448volww The show's creators said: "After inventing this absurdity, we discovered there were six such hospitals (or very large empty wings of hospitals) exactly as we had described them in our episode, notably one in Cambridgeshire in which there was only one patient: the Matron (head of nursing staf…

The flip side of this is that if have excess capacity for medical treatment, that can be incredibly helpful in the case of a rare event such as a terrorist attack or a pandemic.

Excess capacity doesn't have to be 100% operational at all times.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#186

Post by choeger » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

djrogers wrote: post #158

netrus wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always considered that part of a much needed safety net for a professional where stagnation in the hierarchy is no option, but there are less positions at the top than at the bottom. So yes, a kernel of truth, but not necessarily a bad thing.

It’s a bad thing when the cost of higher education is rising at rates 8-10x than inflation due to this excess administrative overhead. If you’ve been out of school for >10yrs, I’d strongly encourage you to look at the current cost of your alma matter - it may well shock you.

To the contrary. It might shock you to hear that it's still free.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#187

Post by bzbarsky » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

canjobear wrote: post #175

hntrader wrote: post #13

The part about synergy between faculties is accurate. Having strong pure math academics helps out the various applied math departments in indirect ways that I've seen. This is a shame. Pure math is a discipline with the most out of whack discrepancy between public positive externality and private benefit, even more than in physics. Pure math discoveries often have unexpected downstream benefits decades later as they…

You can look up the salary of any UC employee here. https://ucannualwage.ucop.edu/wage/ Yes, Terence Tao is doing pretty well.

Just looking at UCLA employees sorted by gross pay is interesting; Tao ends up around #192 on the list. Mostly due to the medical school, plus some people with titles like "INTERCOL ATH HEAD COACH EX" and "INTERCOL ATH COACH AST EX".

The top 3 (and #5) are all "HEAD COACH".

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#188

Post by thethought » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #117

kleiba wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but a singular example does not save the continent.

The first place Facebook opened an AI research centre was Paris. They certainly didn't pick it for the food ;) I think if you look at where the researchers are, Europe does really well. As per usual though, this is poorly commercialised.

In France software companies classify software development as R&d which I think has major tax upside for US companies with RD in France.

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#189

Post by jancsika » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

laretluval wrote: post #172

jancsika wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> events on the currently hot social justice topics. Namespace collision detected: 1. a lecture series or seminar by a researcher specializing in social justice movements, civil rights leaders, abolitionists, etc. Possibly focusing on insights from newly discovered primary documents. 2. events hosted by any political college organization whose participants may be painted with the derisive term "social justice warrior…

Which of those do you think is more likely to draw a large audience? That's the one that will be more common.

Quick digression followed by rank speculation, but I think it will be useful--

What draws the largest general audience at colleges are sports.

It would be reasonable if many HN posters wanted to critique college sports fans for diverting funds and energy from more important scholarly pursuits. It would be reasonable, if a bit odd, for them to do this by sarcastically nicknaming college sports fans, "Einsteins."

It would be understandable if HN posters extended the sarcastic nickname "Einstein" to other domains to target people who ruin that domain by spamming it with superficial, loud-mouthed, low-effort pursuits.

It would not be reasonable, understandable nor healthy if a critical mass of HN posters did this without knowing a) who Einstein is, b) the obvious fact that the nickname is being used sarcastically, and c) an entire department in every major college is concerned with an intellectual pursuit of extending the work that Einstein started. After all, hackers are supposed to understand the systems they hack!

Anyway, if this were the case then anyone with even a passing interest in impugning the reputation of Einstein himself could then leverage that ignorance to do so.

It's my rank speculation that "social justice" to a critical mass of HN'ers has become something of a backformation from "social justice warrior." E.g., an ignorant lurker reads a snippet about some historical figure from a social justice movement (or just a topic tangentially related to a social justice movement from the past), feels outrage over the superficiality and arrogance of SJW's, and unconsciously applies those same feels to whatever the conversation happens to be about.

This happens all the time with memes-- e.g., Tim and Eric make a convincing "Free Real Estate" infomercial parody, parody becomes a meme, Tim shows up in a film, and Redditors mock him: "Hey, it's that Free Real Estate huckster guy!"

Re: University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty

#190

Post by alfl » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

bzbarsky wrote: post #183

alfl wrote: post #170

So if I’m a hiring manager looking at someone with a recent degree from University of Leicester I have to discount their math abilities. Their alumni should complain that the administration is harming the value of their credentials.

> I have to discount their math abilities. Do you? The implication that "applied math" doesn't involve math abilities is an interesting one, but doesn't have bearing on reality. There is a good bit of interesting, and quite challenging, applied mathematics going on out there. Including large chunks of what we usually call "computer science". If I'm a hiring manager hiring for a position where quantitative skills matt…

Totally fair. Depends on the problem space you’re hiring for.

I’m still gonna check though :)