Europe's Vaccine Disaster • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#281

Post by HugoDaniel » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 11:08 AM UTC

true_religion wrote: post #274

HugoDaniel wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing USA states to countries is a very common practice of uneducated Americans.

In the case of health care, it’s apt because the federal government cannot force states to take actions. They can only issue guidelines.

Still there are a lot of variables to consider: production, distribution, shares, access, storage, etc...

In comparison to USA states, the European countries are a real mess: lots of small autonomous areas, language barriers everywhere (with some places only speaking particular dialects), hospital networks and management with wild variations (with a crude mix of private / public / semi-private-public / church / volunteer), population distribution with radical variations between country (hey Spain, how are things?), train network that still doesn't quite commute between countries because someone 2 centuries ago said that there might be a war coming anytime soon, etc...

To top all that, countries are much faster in claiming their autonomy than states (they are countries after all). This single fact has big implications in coordinated efforts.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#282

Post by foepys » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 11:08 AM UTC

patall wrote: post #260

robotmay wrote: post #10

From what I've gathered (unfortunately mostly on Reddit, before this article), Ursula von der Leyen wasn't exactly fondly thought of in Germany before this and somehow keeps managing to fail upwards. Is that accurate? The utterly bonkers u-turn today was a bit of a shocker. For those that haven't seen the news, the European Commission managed to say they were effectively going to establish border controls between the…

It should be noted that von der Leyen got this job not because she was recommend by anyone in Germany. The actuall suggestion supposedly came from Macron. In the vote for her among governments. Germany was the only one to not vote for her, due to an intervention by the social democratic party that is a member of the current german government.

France and Germany wanted both to head the European Central Bank and the European Commission, with both favoring the ECB. France got the ECB position in the end, most likely as part of a deal.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#283

Post by simongray » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 11:13 AM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #226

simongray wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? Countries have been closing borders left and right, the EU hasn't prevented this.

That's a joke - even during the strictest lockdowns, you could travel easily across europe if wanted. Yes often you end up in quarantine at the destination, that is largely not enforced so just best hope. But if you cross 5 states while getting to your destination, they just let you through. Has been like that since... whole covid. We traveled from west to east and back 4x during 2020 through 4 countries, never any i…

Whatever, sow your disinformation. Countries are free to impose border controls and impose any restrictions they wish. The same was the case five years ago during the migrant crisis. My country (Denmark) closed its borders both times, with no objections from the EU - probably because setting up temporary border controls is explicitly allowed in the Schengen Treaty. Maybe your country is laissez-faire about it, but in that case all the blame is on your shitty government, not some phantom EU shadow government.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#284

Post by beagle3 » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 11:14 AM UTC

Ulrich2 wrote: post #262

beagle3 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.27.21250612v... You’ll have to actually read it, or find a tldr from someone who knows what they are doing. The same calc that leads to 0.04% above would say overall covid mortality is 0.08% and is intentionally misleading - but no news media so far (in Israel or outside) has done any review. They are all parroting the misleading numbers. Anything but primary data these…

Please stop spreading lies. The paper is only about "The effectiveness of the first dose of BNT162 ..." 50% efficacy after the first dose is exactly the number that BioNTech reported in its Phase3 trial. So nothing unusual here. That is why the 2nd booster shot is needed to get to 95%.

No it is not. Have you actually read either Pfizer’s report or this paper? Looked at their data?

The graphs, both in Pfizer’s original report and in this paper, show that past about two weeks, there is almost no change. Please look at the Pfizer graphs and tell me where the great advance is from 50% to 90%

Also, if yo actually read the Pfizer report, you’ll notice the 95% is for mild disease - a totally uninteresting result. For severe disease, it is 75% with a CI spanning the whole 0-100% range.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#285

Post by helge9210 » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 11:15 AM UTC

Assumption is "more vaccinated -- better outcome" which is not proven yet.

In Israel (I'm israeli) almost two millions got two shots of Pfizer vaccine (starting from older population at risk and gradually including younger age groups). Amount of patients in serious or critical condition is growing. Amount of infected grows. This number is manipulated by changing the amount of tests and selection process. Those vaccinated are deliberately not tested so no information on infections after immunity is supposed to kick in.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#286

Post by jack_arleth » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 11:15 AM UTC

Throwawayaerlei wrote: post #123

outside1234 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU did not pay as much as the US — and signed the contracts much later. Pfizer is doing the rational actor thing and, given a shortage, prioritizing their highest paying clients. There might also be verbiage in the US contract to this effect. Also, Pfizer is an American company.

There might also be verbiage in the US contract to this effect. Also, Pfizer is an American company. But also a multinational, manufacturing their vaccine in the US and Belgium. Initially without any help from Operation Warp Speed, which appears to be a mistake if their December claims about supply chain problems was true, along with eventually signing up to the program and moving up their promise for our second 100…

As a Belgian, this is what we've heard and read:

- Pfizer stated on 15 Jan 2021 that they would produce 40% less (60.000 instead of 100.000 doses)

- This delay in production would we compensated in the weeks that follow. In February the production should be compensated.

- This was a temporary measure to scale up production after an extra order was made by the EU

The working group concerning the vaccine and it's distribution was to quote "not amused" by this news and wrote a sternly worded letter.

Source:https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2021/01/16/versnelde-inenting-z... Text in Dutch.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#287

Post by beagle3 » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 11:15 AM UTC

Ulrich2 wrote: post #263

beagle3 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is propaganda. The real data is in https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.27.21250612v... and is 50% (not uniformly over age groups, but 50% is a good summary of it all). The Israeli government failed miserably in dealing with covid. They were successful in getting the vaccines (and thanks to the HMOs and no thanks to the government, deploy them quickly) and selling the hopium that this will solve every…

Please stop spreading lies. The paper is only about "The effectiveness of the first dose of BNT162 ..." 50% efficacy after the first dose is exactly the number that BioNTech reported in its Phase3 trial. So nothing unusual here. That is why the 2nd booster shot is needed to get to 95%.

See my other reply to the other copy of your comment.

Please prove that you actually read the Pfizer report and not just repeating headlines before calling me a lier.

I might have misread some data, but I see no indication that you are in a position to judge that.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#288

Post by FartyMcFarter » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 11:15 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #180

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China literally runs concentration camps for some of their citizens. If that's how they treat citizens, why should foreigners expect good treatment?

We won’t have to live in China, we will consume the vaccines like we consume the iPhones.

But you inject the vaccine into your body.

Remember the melamine in baby formula scandal? To this day, many Chinese parents are still buying formula from abroad.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#289

Post by beagle3 » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 11:17 AM UTC

yyyk wrote: post #272

beagle3 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is propaganda. The real data is in https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.27.21250612v... and is 50% (not uniformly over age groups, but 50% is a good summary of it all). The Israeli government failed miserably in dealing with covid. They were successful in getting the vaccines (and thanks to the HMOs and no thanks to the government, deploy them quickly) and selling the hopium that this will solve every…

You're mixing up two different datasets. The former deals with first dose effectiveness (which we've always known to be lower - that's why the regiment is two doses), the latter with the full two dose regiment. Ynet is Yediot, which is either the biggest daily newspaper or the second-biggest depending on how you count, either way it has more influence than Yisrael-Hayom. They do neglect their English site, but this p…

Please look at the graphs and data, not the headlines.

Nothing magical happens past day 12 from the first vaccine in the Pfizer paper, or day 18 in this paper. Seriously. Look at it.

Yes, ynetnews is ynet/yediot. Their reporting of covid is exactly parroting the government with no criticism whatsoever so far.

I’m not antivax, I’m provad. 50% is pretty damn good for a first attempt. But everything has become so political, I go read primary data - and it is NOT remotely close to what the headlines say.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#290

Post by exporectomy » Sat, Jan 30, 2021, 11:24 AM UTC

HugoDaniel wrote: post #267

exporectomy wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your response is consistent with the claim you called a lie. Adding "considering that ..." allows you to hold the EU to an arbitrarily lower standard than the other countries.

I am a EU citizen, my standards are much higher. EU didn't had to sell their citizens healthcare data to move up the stack (like Israel did). The EU negotiations with these Big Pharma corps made it wait for these 3 countries (Israel, UK and USA). Vaccinations started 1 or 2 months later in EU (depending on country). A fair comparison would be the data of today in EU with the data from 1 or 2 months ago in those count…

To be honest, I don't know a thing about this topic. I just found it odd that you seemed to be acknowledging that what you called a lie could actually have been the truth. You still seem to be acknowledge that the EU is facing setbacks.

Why negotiate? Because it's a scarce resource and has to be allocated somehow.