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Europe's Vaccine Disaster

spiegel.de

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Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#261

Post by beagle3 »

yyyk wrote: post #250
beagle3 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted that this is likely nit worse than Pfizer, despite marketing. The 50% for Sinovac is real world data; the 95% for Pfizer comes from company phase 3 data. Well, last night a reputable Israeli HMO posted it’s real world data for Pfizer, and it’s 50% after 18 days and doesnt seem to get much better (but they don’t have enough data yet to know for sure). And now, although everyone claims Pfizer says yo…

>Well, last night a reputable Israeli HMO posted it’s real world data for Pfizer, and it’s 50% after 18 days and doesnt seem to get much better Their initial results are actually very encouraging[0] in this regard. [0] https://www.ynetnews.com/health_science/article/Hk2URcnku

That is propaganda. The real data is in https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.27.21250612v... and is 50% (not uniformly over age groups, but 50% is a good summary of it all).

The Israeli government failed miserably in dealing with covid. They were successful in getting the vaccines (and thanks to the HMOs and no thanks to the government, deploy them quickly) and selling the hopium that this will solve everything and make up for the failure so far.

So now they are in a very bad place. If they admit the real stats publicly before the vaccine project is done, people will stop getting vaccinated (not because 50% effective is bad - but because they’ve been misled). No one wants that. I suspect that’s why the media (ynetnews - a local USA Today equivalent, included) are all parroting the official statements without review comment or criticism.

The numbers in the ynetnews are not false but they are (likely intentionally) misleading. If you used the same arguments, you’d get an IFR that’s way lower than the flu, for example. They cherry picked a completely meaningless statistic that looks good, and claimed it is the vaccine efficiency. It is not.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#262

Post by Ulrich2 »

beagle3 wrote: post #247
Dzidas wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The data, which looked at more than 700,000 fully vaccinated people in Israel, found that only .04 percent of people contracted Covid-19, according to the head of Israel’s Ministry of Health, Dr. Sharon Alroy Preis at a press conference on Thursday. The type of vaccine Israel has mostly used is the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine with a small number of doses from Moderna. The two vaccines use the same technology, and in cli…

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.27.21250612v... You’ll have to actually read it, or find a tldr from someone who knows what they are doing. The same calc that leads to 0.04% above would say overall covid mortality is 0.08% and is intentionally misleading - but no news media so far (in Israel or outside) has done any review. They are all parroting the misleading numbers. Anything but primary data these…

Please stop spreading lies. The paper is only about "The effectiveness of the first dose of BNT162 ..."

50% efficacy after the first dose is exactly the number that BioNTech reported in its Phase3 trial. So nothing unusual here. That is why the 2nd booster shot is needed to get to 95%.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#263

Post by Ulrich2 »

beagle3 wrote: post #261
yyyk wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Well, last night a reputable Israeli HMO posted it’s real world data for Pfizer, and it’s 50% after 18 days and doesnt seem to get much better Their initial results are actually very encouraging[0] in this regard. [0] https://www.ynetnews.com/health_science/article/Hk2URcnku

That is propaganda. The real data is in https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.27.21250612v... and is 50% (not uniformly over age groups, but 50% is a good summary of it all). The Israeli government failed miserably in dealing with covid. They were successful in getting the vaccines (and thanks to the HMOs and no thanks to the government, deploy them quickly) and selling the hopium that this will solve every…

Please stop spreading lies. The paper is only about "The effectiveness of the first dose of BNT162 ..."

50% efficacy after the first dose is exactly the number that BioNTech reported in its Phase3 trial. So nothing unusual here. That is why the 2nd booster shot is needed to get to 95%.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#264

Post by neilsense »

HugoDaniel wrote: post #255

"Europe is facing a vaccine disaster. Whereas countries like Israel, Britain and the United States. are quickly moving ahead with vaccinations, the EU is reeling from a string of setbacks. " this is a lie, per capita EU is not that bad considering that it is a coordinated effort (as opposed to a singular effort by a singular country). Overall this is Der Spiegel making an opinion article disguised as a news article.…

"not that bad" -> more people dying

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#265

Post by Proven »

noja wrote: post #206
mrtksn wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese and the Russian vaccines were not even considered. Now those are used in mass vaccinations, soon EU would be behind all countries but those who barely have any government at all. People don't even want to talk about that, as if those alternatives don't exists. Non-EU countries in Europe are getting them. Serbia(6.1) and Turkey(2.3) are already close to EU average(2.6) or better on the vaccination process.

> Chinese and the Russian vaccines were not even considered. The Russian vaccine's "trial" was mostly a non-consensual trial carried out on their military. I expect this lowered confidence. Does China have a vaccine with decent effectiveness yet? Last time I read about it, the number was around 50%.

Blah blah Russia something...

https://news.yahoo.com/hungary-buys-russias-sputnik-v-084049...

The first vaccine from China is around 60%, considered sort of enough.

I wouldn't use either, but that's just me.

As for the so called vaccine disaster, what the hell did people expect??? Leave the EU and take matter in own hands. The incompetence displayed by the EU since the 90's is almost impossible to match - it takes an effort to do worse than that.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#266

Post by thepasswordis »

HugoDaniel wrote: post #255

"Europe is facing a vaccine disaster. Whereas countries like Israel, Britain and the United States. are quickly moving ahead with vaccinations, the EU is reeling from a string of setbacks. " this is a lie, per capita EU is not that bad considering that it is a coordinated effort (as opposed to a singular effort by a singular country). Overall this is Der Spiegel making an opinion article disguised as a news article.…

The US effort is also not a singular effort. Each state is basically running their own system.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#267

Post by HugoDaniel »

exporectomy wrote: post #259
HugoDaniel wrote: post #255

"Europe is facing a vaccine disaster. Whereas countries like Israel, Britain and the United States. are quickly moving ahead with vaccinations, the EU is reeling from a string of setbacks. " this is a lie, per capita EU is not that bad considering that it is a coordinated effort (as opposed to a singular effort by a singular country). Overall this is Der Spiegel making an opinion article disguised as a news article.…

Your response is consistent with the claim you called a lie. Adding "considering that ..." allows you to hold the EU to an arbitrarily lower standard than the other countries.

I am a EU citizen, my standards are much higher.

EU didn't had to sell their citizens healthcare data to move up the stack (like Israel did). The EU negotiations with these Big Pharma corps made it wait for these 3 countries (Israel, UK and USA). Vaccinations started 1 or 2 months later in EU (depending on country).

A fair comparison would be the data of today in EU with the data from 1 or 2 months ago in those countries (per capita).

But the big questions are:

Why did we have to negotiate vaccines for a global pandemic? Why are countries moving up the stack with Big Pharma? Why is the vaccination rate higher in USA than in Mozambique?

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#268

Post by Adverblessly »

beagle3 wrote: post #247
Dzidas wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The data, which looked at more than 700,000 fully vaccinated people in Israel, found that only .04 percent of people contracted Covid-19, according to the head of Israel’s Ministry of Health, Dr. Sharon Alroy Preis at a press conference on Thursday. The type of vaccine Israel has mostly used is the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine with a small number of doses from Moderna. The two vaccines use the same technology, and in cli…

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.27.21250612v... You’ll have to actually read it, or find a tldr from someone who knows what they are doing. The same calc that leads to 0.04% above would say overall covid mortality is 0.08% and is intentionally misleading - but no news media so far (in Israel or outside) has done any review. They are all parroting the misleading numbers. Anything but primary data these…

Quoting from the link you provided:

"We demonstrated an effectiveness of 51% of BNT162b2 vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 infection 13-24 days after immunization with the first dose. Immunization with the second dose should be continued to attain the anticipated protection."

I.e. if you take only the first dose of the two required then 13 days after taking it you already get an effectiveness of 50%. Therefore they recommend that people take the 2nd dose as prescribed. They don't mention effectiveness one week after the 2nd shot, which is what Israel considers to be immune (i.e. "green passport" status).

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#269

Post by HugoDaniel »

thepasswordis wrote: post #266
HugoDaniel wrote: post #255

"Europe is facing a vaccine disaster. Whereas countries like Israel, Britain and the United States. are quickly moving ahead with vaccinations, the EU is reeling from a string of setbacks. " this is a lie, per capita EU is not that bad considering that it is a coordinated effort (as opposed to a singular effort by a singular country). Overall this is Der Spiegel making an opinion article disguised as a news article.…

The US effort is also not a singular effort. Each state is basically running their own system.

Comparing USA states to countries is a very common practice of uneducated Americans.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#270

Post by pja »

Throwawayaerlei wrote: post #98
digikata wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why not cover younger people with the GSK version and older people with some other vaccine?

Excellent question. Probably the biggest factor is that Phase III trials are insanely expensive, like a billion dollars plus or minus. High touch, 30,000 people minimum for the US, lasts two years, etc. Sanofi/GSK is hazarding some of their own money in this, and has to look at the market for COVID-19 vaccines, which is obviously weighted towards the elderly. Might also be risk management in wondering if the final re…

That figure doesn’t pass the smell test. I think you’re confusing the cost of a phase III trial with the total end-to-end cost of developing new drugs.

Injecting 30,000 people twice with a vaccine & tracking their post injection experience does not cost $1billion. (Googles) The FDA thinks a phase III trial costs about $20million. So there you go.

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