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Europe's Vaccine Disaster

spiegel.de

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Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#241

Post by berkes »

tiku wrote: post #200

On top of that the Dutch government had a leak in their testing and vaccination database, leaking all the social security numbers, address data etc. Total clusterfuck.

That is completely off topic.

It's really bad in itself, but not related to vaccinations in any way.

Correlating them is an Ad Hominem (ad institutum?) at best, and a libel at worst.

By correlating those, politicians and 'alternative' media are using the (proven right) distrust for testing to distrust for vaccinations. That is disingenuous and dangerous.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#242

Post by grey-area »

vidarh wrote: post #209
mrec wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the theory that the immune system response to Oxford's virus vector is mostly negating the benefit of the second dose taken 21 days after the first Do you know if there are more trials underway to verify this? I'm guessing it ties in to AZ's encouragement for delaying the second dose i.e. wait until the immune response has died down. I think UK medical consensus is currently recommending 12 weeks rather than the or…

The 12 weeks is not about maximizing protection for an individual recipient, but was a decision made solely to get the first dose to more people faster. In terms of effect on effectiveness per person it is purely speculative.

That's not correct for the AZ vaccine, the longer interval is supported by the trial data, and we simply lack that data for other vaccines, though for most other vaccines historically a longer interval than 3 weeks is better for a second dose.

Exploratory analyses showed that increased immunogenicity was associated with a longer dose interval (see Immunogenicity Table 3). Efficacy is currently demonstrated with more certainty for dose intervals from 8 to 12 weeks. Data for intervals longer than 12 weeks are limited.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approv...

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#243

Post by ranguna »

riffraff wrote: post #168
outside1234 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were multiple efforts - but no reason to collaborate. And the French effort utterly failed to the point that they gave up. And Germany’s BioNTech signed an exclusive deal with Pfizer.

Sanofi is going to produce the Pfizer vaccine too, it was reported by Bloomberg a couple days back. EDIT: found a CNBC article https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/26/sanofi-to-produce-100-millio...

BioNTech's vaccine, not pfizer. Pfizer is just the distributer.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#244

Post by Dzidas »

beagle3 wrote: post #227
jackTheMan wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the Chinese vaccine with 50% efficiency could be used for herd immunity at all. Im not a virologyst, but the false safety of most people vaccinated with it in a country might could trigger even more death? The Chinese vaccine is not even tested above 59 years old. If the young is vaccinated and start to party etc the new more infectious variants could still spread and can reach even more elderly.

It should be noted that this is likely nit worse than Pfizer, despite marketing. The 50% for Sinovac is real world data; the 95% for Pfizer comes from company phase 3 data. Well, last night a reputable Israeli HMO posted it’s real world data for Pfizer, and it’s 50% after 18 days and doesnt seem to get much better (but they don’t have enough data yet to know for sure). And now, although everyone claims Pfizer says yo…

"The data, which looked at more than 700,000 fully vaccinated people in Israel, found that only .04 percent of people contracted Covid-19, according to the head of Israel’s Ministry of Health, Dr. Sharon Alroy Preis at a press conference on Thursday.

The type of vaccine Israel has mostly used is the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine with a small number of doses from Moderna. The two vaccines use the same technology, and in clinical trials were found to be about 95% effective. " https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic... Can you share your datasource claiming that efficacy is only 50%?

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#245

Post by grey-area »

roenxi wrote: post #35
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #13

> The EU negotiating team, according to people familiar with the talks, was intent on pushing down the price. In the middle of a pandemic that is literally costing trillions, this seems like the EU negotiators lost sight of the big picture.

I assume literally the entire job of the negotiating team is to negotiate the price down. If their job isn't to negotiate the price down, what are the negotiators hired for? If they are just going to take the market price, there doesn't need to be a negotiation team. Just let companies sell the vaccine to whoever at whatever price. They didn't lose sight of the big picture, they did what they were there to do.

Fast, good, cheap. Pick two.

Their job is to make the appropriate choices. In this situation cheap is not a priority due to the costs of delay.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#246

Post by StavrosK »

TheMechanist wrote: post #194
ahartmetz wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Von der Leyen deserves all the hatchet jobs she can get... She is the child of a political dynasty and hasn't done anything well for citizens in her life.

Besides her parentage, you forgot to mention that she's a German woman and mother in a position of power, to fully "justify" your ad hominem attack.

It's not an ad hominem when you're talking about someone's competence. Has she done anything good or not?

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#247

Post by beagle3 »

Dzidas wrote: post #244
beagle3 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted that this is likely nit worse than Pfizer, despite marketing. The 50% for Sinovac is real world data; the 95% for Pfizer comes from company phase 3 data. Well, last night a reputable Israeli HMO posted it’s real world data for Pfizer, and it’s 50% after 18 days and doesnt seem to get much better (but they don’t have enough data yet to know for sure). And now, although everyone claims Pfizer says yo…

"The data, which looked at more than 700,000 fully vaccinated people in Israel, found that only .04 percent of people contracted Covid-19, according to the head of Israel’s Ministry of Health, Dr. Sharon Alroy Preis at a press conference on Thursday. The type of vaccine Israel has mostly used is the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine with a small number of doses from Moderna. The two vaccines use the same technology, and in cli…

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.27.21250612v...

You’ll have to actually read it, or find a tldr from someone who knows what they are doing.

The same calc that leads to 0.04% above would say overall covid mortality is 0.08% and is intentionally misleading - but no news media so far (in Israel or outside) has done any review. They are all parroting the misleading numbers.

Anything but primary data these days is suspect. (Pfizer’s own primary data, btw, says severe disease is 75% RRR with CI 0-100%. Did you see anyone reporting on that?)

Edit: to add: Israel is an a horrible bind right now. The vaccine is only 50% effective but gov has done very badly in handling the disease and promoted the vaccine as “our way out”, so the gov is attempting to hide that data. Unfortunately for them, Israel is too small and the culture not supportive of hiding this, even if at this point the mass media is cooperating with the government.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#248

Post by CodeGlitch »

cdavid wrote: post #7

I wonder if this will become a watershed moment for the EU. I've always been an ardent believer in the European program, both for historical reasons (I have French and German grand parents), but also because for all its warts, I believed the EU had a competent bureaucracy, able to go above the pettyness of national politics. French politicians of all side love scapegoating EU for their own failures. To say that the c…

The EU fails yet again to handle a crisis. It's great at some things (gdpr) which are slow burners... But when having to make quick decisions the cracks start to show. Being a Brit I do hope they come through this ok because I feel the world needs the EU.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#249

Post by viseztrance »

marcinzm wrote: post #22
cdavid wrote: post #7

I wonder if this will become a watershed moment for the EU. I've always been an ardent believer in the European program, both for historical reasons (I have French and German grand parents), but also because for all its warts, I believed the EU had a competent bureaucracy, able to go above the pettyness of national politics. French politicians of all side love scapegoating EU for their own failures. To say that the c…

The US has twice the per capita covid deaths as Germany. Great success right there, hurrah!

And the US also has a way lower population density.

Re: Europe's Vaccine Disaster

#250

Post by yyyk »

beagle3 wrote: post #227
jackTheMan wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the Chinese vaccine with 50% efficiency could be used for herd immunity at all. Im not a virologyst, but the false safety of most people vaccinated with it in a country might could trigger even more death? The Chinese vaccine is not even tested above 59 years old. If the young is vaccinated and start to party etc the new more infectious variants could still spread and can reach even more elderly.

It should be noted that this is likely nit worse than Pfizer, despite marketing. The 50% for Sinovac is real world data; the 95% for Pfizer comes from company phase 3 data. Well, last night a reputable Israeli HMO posted it’s real world data for Pfizer, and it’s 50% after 18 days and doesnt seem to get much better (but they don’t have enough data yet to know for sure). And now, although everyone claims Pfizer says yo…

>Well, last night a reputable Israeli HMO posted it’s real world data for Pfizer, and it’s 50% after 18 days and doesnt seem to get much better

Their initial results are actually very encouraging[0] in this regard.

[0] https://www.ynetnews.com/health_science/article/Hk2URcnku

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