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Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

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Re: Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But can we actually talk about game design theory and how games are designed. That is antithetical to how I view art. Let the people playing the games sort the wheat from the chaff. There's a reason why "Settlers of Catan" and "Ticket to Ride" are on big box store shelves now.

It's because they aim at normies, not boardgamers (normies are the risk/monopoly crowd). Also they were on the market 'first' with a mass appeal. They are, however, not good games. A million flies eating shit doesn't make shit good.

Nah, Catan is an EXCELLENT game, especially in the context of what was available when it was created in the 90's. I don't play it anymore because I've played enough for three lifetimes, as of ten years ago. But it's good enough that I have played it that much!

Ticket to Ride is entirely forgettable, though... It feels like Candyland, but without the meta-commentary on the illusion of free will.

Re: Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

#142

> We began our data collection by identifying all board games developed by teams of game designers published and ranked on BGG between 1990 and 2018. The entire paper is based on survivorship bias.

Interesting. Please, elaborate why you think that is and how this - against the background of the paper - would bias the results.

They missed all the amateur designers whose games were not published and ranked. So only the best amateur designers made it into the sample.

Re: Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

#143
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppression, no; but choosing priorities carries an element of ethical responsibility. You can choose to dedicate your time towards improving chemical weapons or towards improving harvest yields. Better chemical weapons will likely come about anyway, but why hasten their arrival?

Isn't that a first order effect though? A second order effect would be researching a life-saving drug for a lifestyle condition. You research means people have less incentive to live healthily and end up dying even sooner from some other diet-related disease. The disease you cured would have scared them "straight" diet-wise.

This is nitpicking. Replace "improving chemical weapons" with "improving gases that will likely only be used in chemical weapons".

Re: Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because they aim at normies, not boardgamers (normies are the risk/monopoly crowd). Also they were on the market 'first' with a mass appeal. They are, however, not good games. A million flies eating shit doesn't make shit good.

Nah, Catan is an EXCELLENT game, especially in the context of what was available when it was created in the 90's. I don't play it anymore because I've played enough for three lifetimes, as of ten years ago. But it's good enough that I have played it that much! Ticket to Ride is entirely forgettable, though... It feels like Candyland, but without the meta-commentary on the illusion of free will.

You say that like Candyland is a bad game.

;-)

Re: Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

#145
post #56

Gamedev here. Sigh. One, the measurement of novelty is bad: it's basically the measure of whether the game exhibits a novel mashup of mechanics according to the BoardGameGeek ontology of mechanics. This is a terrible definition of novelty, as it ignores all of the other aspects of game design, both in gameplay (interesting systems, challenges, loops) and non-game play (fiction, setting, presentation, etc). Who measur…

IMHO it is not as flawed as the way you present it. >>> One, the measurement of novelty is bad: it's basically the measure of whether the game exhibits a novel mashup of mechanics according to the BoardGameGeek ontology of mechanics. >>> This is a terrible definition of novelty, as it ignores all of the other aspects of game design, both in gameplay (interesting systems, challenges, loops) and non-game play (fiction,…

Ah, a technical discussion! :) Sure, I'd be happy to dig in further into the details.

> Why do you think using genres to measure knowledge diversity is questionable? What is your concern about doing so? Please elaborate if you seem to have such a strong opinion on that.

Sure. Basically I treat a genre as a family of design solutions to a particular set of constraints, reified as artifacts. A genre will carry with it answers to a lot of question around who the player is, what is their role in the world, what kind of actions they can take on what kinds of objects (i.e. mechanics) and so on. In a sense, the choice of a genre answers a lot of the broad questions, letting the author delve deep into more detailed questions.

Going back to the author metaphor - it's like saying, Eco is lacking knowledge diversity because he mainly wrote books that tackled issues around meaning and semiotics. Sure, he never wrote any comic books or young adult novels. But that by itself is not a problem - that doesn't mean he had low "knowledge diversity" - especially since when he wrote about meaning, he dug deep into everything that related to it.

So in my design practice, I don't see deep expertise in specific genres as equivalent to "low knowledge diversity". Very much the opposite.

> Using the mashup of mechanics to measure novelty seems logical for two reasons. First, in creativity research, it is quite common to measure novelty as uniqueness or as distinctiveness regarding already existing "solutions."

What gets me here is uniqueness/distinctiveness purely based on taking mechanics and converting them into a distance metric. There's much, much more to a game than that! A game can be unique even when it shares a lot of mechanics with its predecessors. Indeed the whole history of game development is an evolution of designs, which are in conversation with what came before them - as in all arts, really.

Again, imagine complaining that Georgia O'Keefe had low "novelty" because she used traditional painting materials and composition.

> Second, the authors refer to the MDA framework in their method section as an explanation of why they use mechanics. Following this framework, mechanics are not only the core elements of a game but also the only thing a game designer is able to influence - not the dynamics (i.e., run-time behavior, which seems to be "gameplay" in your wording) nor aesthetics (i.e., emotional responses of the player, which seems to be "non-game play" in your wording).

So, a few things. Per MDA, mechanics are the only material elements of gameplay design that designers can influence - gameplay, as in the behavior of the game once it's put into motion by players. But they're not the only material elements of the game itself! Beyond just the aesthetics of interacting with game rules (the A in MDA) there are also sensory aesthetics, audiovisual aesthetics, and other elements of appreciating the game artifact on a material level.

But on a deeper level, just because M in MDA is the material substrate that designers can influence, that doesn't mean that's the interesting level to focus on. For example, take a game like Universal Paperclips. If we focused purely on the mechanics, it's a fairly tedious game with bog-standard resource loops. But if we look at the larger loops that the player participates in, and boosted by the innovative fiction (innovative by clicker game standards at least), the overall player experience is very different from what you'd expect by just looking at the mechanics!

And we could do the same exercise for basically any game. Just looking at the mechanics is reductionist, in terms of what the game brings to the table (as it were ;) ).

So that's the main problem I have with looking at just mechanics, and proclaiming a distance vector in mechanics as an novelty metric. It completely misses the forest for the trees.

Hope this was useful! Or at least enjoyable :)

Re: Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because they aim at normies, not boardgamers (normies are the risk/monopoly crowd). Also they were on the market 'first' with a mass appeal. They are, however, not good games. A million flies eating shit doesn't make shit good.

Nah, Catan is an EXCELLENT game, especially in the context of what was available when it was created in the 90's. I don't play it anymore because I've played enough for three lifetimes, as of ten years ago. But it's good enough that I have played it that much! Ticket to Ride is entirely forgettable, though... It feels like Candyland, but without the meta-commentary on the illusion of free will.

Catan breaks when I have all the wood and you need wood to win but I refuse to trade with anyone. It's a very aged and crummy design. Many people just don't know better.

Re: Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

#147
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I defer most of those questions to someone that understands the landscape better. It was an underserved market though and lots of people enjoy unrealistic depictions of sex so combining that with games is hardly rocket science. The bit I find interesting is despite the porn industry in the west being big on tech like streaming and VR it’s not really there on games. Too much reliance on real people or somethi…

One problem, I think, is that making good porn games is difficult. Sex is all about contact, and just look how messed up physics can be, even simple physics in AAA games. If something like throwing a punch is difficult to do right, even thought there is a single point of contact, imagine how hard a sex position where the entire body is in contact can be to simulate. To make things worse, sex (usually) deals with huma…

Not my area of expertise, but I've heard, through the proverbial grapevine, there is a popular mobile game making the rounds that allows thirsty players to "send nudez" in which the full image can only be unlocked via solving a classic N-puzzle sliding game. Reluctant to search for it myself, but shouldn't be too hard to find ;)

Re: Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

#148
post #56

Gamedev here. Sigh. One, the measurement of novelty is bad: it's basically the measure of whether the game exhibits a novel mashup of mechanics according to the BoardGameGeek ontology of mechanics. This is a terrible definition of novelty, as it ignores all of the other aspects of game design, both in gameplay (interesting systems, challenges, loops) and non-game play (fiction, setting, presentation, etc). Who measur…

>And finally, the main problem is: sure, if you compare hobbyists (who make what they want for fun) with professionals (who are making a product that needs to sell more than a small handful of copies), of course you're going to find that hobbyists are more free to experiment with wild permutations of mechanics. But in doing so, they conflate personal ability with situational constraints. What about professional desig…

>>> professionals who have stepped back into the indie world

This immediately reminded me of Notch and the birth of Minecraft. What's amazing is that the private alpha launch is recorded for posterity in the TIG forums:

https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=6273.0

The gameplay mechanic is everything. On day one, players were mining rocks, building castles. And a decade later, that same intuitive territorial need, that taps into primitive desire is still alive. Players are mining rocks, building castles (and much more)!

I also think about the classic card game Uno. We've now got like four generations of fiercely competitive players in my family. There's decks in the kitchen, the living room, even in the car. It's so simple to start a game. Infinite replayability. And the latest innovation: blank cards. So you can literally draw an "Eat my Underwear" for infinite expansion.

That endless replayability in gameplay mechanics can then be considered to be the crux. Headshots in FPS are just as satisfying in Valorant as they were two decades ago in Counter-Strike. Perfect information, turn-based strategy games are all variants of millennia old Chess, which is experiencing a renaissance. One of the best things on the web today is the 3000+ Stockfish superhuman lichess.org WASMX real-time analyzer with 8-ply depth search. It's a portend of things to come for the coming era of AI-mediated design.

So what we are really talking about is an exhaustive exploration of the gameplay mechanic space. With the criterion that if it is endlessly replayable, it will be "fun" forever.

Great discussion all around, I really enjoyed reading everyone's comments. Welcome counter-programming to all the noise in the current noosphere ;)

Re: Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, Catan is an EXCELLENT game, especially in the context of what was available when it was created in the 90's. I don't play it anymore because I've played enough for three lifetimes, as of ten years ago. But it's good enough that I have played it that much! Ticket to Ride is entirely forgettable, though... It feels like Candyland, but without the meta-commentary on the illusion of free will.

Catan breaks when I have all the wood and you need wood to win but I refuse to trade with anyone. It's a very aged and crummy design. Many people just don't know better.

That's hilarious. The Root discussion forums are an endless mess of issues like this, for which the answer is uniformly 'pay attention to the other players and don't let that happen!' (With the added problem of being Root, so that knowing what other players are up to takes about two dozen games if experience.) And yet root is still a pretty high rated game...

Re: Hobbyists beat professional designers in creating novel board games

#150

What do they mean by "knowledge diversity is a double-edged sword that has opposing effects on [the two dimensions of team creativity,] novelty and usefulness" So (more) knowledge diversity = (more) novelty and (less) usefulness? or is it more = less and less

Did you actually read the article? ^_^" Nevertheless, it's seems that the more knowledge diversity a team has, the MORE novelty and LESS usefulness. It's all about communication, sharing ideas, interpretation of knowledge (mental models), and self-regulation.

Sloppy on my part, sorry :/ but in my defense it was paywalled
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