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Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

web.eecs.utk.edu

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Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#131

Post by bryanrasmussen »

ksec wrote: post #50

I would not be surprised if even Professional Web Developers cant do it. Especially if you include deployment. This isn't the old days of FTP, Perl or PHP anymore. There are too much information I cant memorise every single bit of it. And I dont think you should either. Especially in the age of Google. My memory capacity has its limit, and there are things I just decide it is not important enough to memorise when I c…

I'm reasonably sure I could write a basic site, make it look as good as I can make things look given my sense of design, without searching.

If I was allowed to look at what I already have on my machine I could even set up a build process for my site. If not allowed then no build process.

But it would probably be pretty slow to write this, depending on how basic the site was, and it would not be as good as if I could look things up when I needed to.

But I wouldn't be able to deploy without searching.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#132

Post by madhadron »

So the crucial thing for me would be: are the reference docs for may language/library/OS considered external resources? Can I type man in a terminal? Can I use a Python repl to explore the data structures? If so, then, yes, I can. But I had to go double tab on http.server to remember what was in there.

I used to commute on a ferry, and was offline for that commute. Often I would do some coding (more often I was writing), and a tool like Dash that put reference docs offline was essential.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#133

Post by 908B64B197 »

kortilla wrote: post #35
warkdarrior wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters because SWE interviews rely on coding without googling. Maybe we need to change how interviews are done to test people on their Googling skills. For a given coding task, what do they search for? Do they Google for the right terms? Do they converge quickly on the right website to copy from?

SWE interviews (at FAANGs at least) don’t care about library specifics though. As long as you know the syntax and how to write algos/data structures, you can make it through. There is a strong argument that being good at that isn’t required for most SWEs (including at FAANG), but it is something that having library/framework references doesn’t really help with.

> There is a strong argument that being good at that isn't required for most SWEs (including at FAANG)

Algos/data structures are used as a proxy for problem solving and how fast someone can learn. Plus every decent CS program will have a few courses on it.

Also, internal codebases are, well, internal. You won't get a nicely formatted Stack Overflow response on how X works if X is deep in the Google Source tree.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#134

Post by mch82 »

sosodev wrote: post #5

Does it actually matter if I can? Is using reference material a bad thing? Edit: I know the article touches on that idea briefly but my argument would be "of course it doesn't matter". Sure, I could develop slightly faster with a more encyclopedic memory but I really doubt it would make an observable difference in the long-term. Most of my time isn't spent referencing libraries or syntax but instead I spend most of m…

You are 100% right. Of course it doesn’t matter.

> Does an over-reliance on documentation indicate a lack of critical expertise that will ultimately result in considerably lower job performance?

Technical research is a skill. I love working with teammates who understand how to find, evaluate, and apply proven solutions. Most projects can spare the time to do a reuse trade study before writing something from scratch.

Use (and authoring) of documentation is also a skill. Professionals use documentation to communicate with teammates so projects can scale efficiently.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#135

Post by pcthrowaway »

burlesona wrote: post #79
dusted wrote: post #9

I can, but it will be basic! I might have to use a JSON file for the backend because I probably can't remember any database libs well enough to use without documentation. However, lots of programming is much closer to plumming than to.. programming.. any time you're using a lib or api, you're just looking up what kind of fittings that comes with and what length of pipe to attach to it.. So don't worry about not being…

Yeah I would say this is exactly right. You should be able to learn at least one language deeply enough that, given sufficient time, you could do just about anything without libraries or external dependencies, and therefore without needing additional documentation. Aspiring to and eventually developing that level of language mastery is, IMO, one of the core signs of maturity for a Software Engineer. However, that wou…

> You should be able to learn at least one language deeply enough that, given sufficient time, you could do just about anything without libraries or external dependencies, and therefore without needing additional documentation. Aspiring to and eventually developing that level of language mastery is, IMO, one of the core signs of maturity for a Software Engineer.

I don't understand why so much emphasis is put on being able to do this without consulting the docs. Sure, it's nice to be able to pound out the most basic valid HTML page without googling it, but that's hardly a web app. If you need a backend component, I suspect the ecosystems where you can make anything practical using only built-in functions (no libs) are in the minority. You'd end up doing ridiculous stuff like using the filesystem as a database, plain javascript on the client side, node's builtin http in the backend. People with years of expertise may be able to do this, but it's just a side effect of having been steeped in the tech stacks for so long. I don't agree that being able to do this is something worth aspiring to. Rather, people should aspire to moving efficiently within their ecosystems and conserving mental space by knowing where to find things quickly.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#136

Post by olenin »

I couldn't, some undoubtedly could, but that's not the point. What a wonderfully posed question with much broader implications, especially relevant to Australians ATM vis a vis the government's attempted tussle with the big people. I hope this discussion spreads. This is a thank you message. Cheers.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#137

Post by core-questions »

azhenley wrote: post #3
core-questions wrote: post #2

> To be fair, I'm not a web developer Kind of a non-article. Could I make an outdoor irrigation system, fix my head gasket, or anything else complicated without doing some research?

Author here. I'm a professor that teaches software engineering and occasionally web development, sooo I think your comparison is inapt...

So in my metaphor, that would be like perhaps a gardener assembling irrigation, or someone in a mechanical trade fixing the gasket. There's still a ton of specific knowledge to the job in question.

Of course, it shouldn't be that Google specifically is necessary - just some literature or reference source (i.e. consulting with someone).

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#138

Post by olenin »

I couldn't either. No doubt many could. But that's not the point. What a wonderfully posed question with such broad relevance, especially for Australians ATM vis a vis the government's current attempted tussle with the omniscient platform. Please let this discussion grow. This is just a thank you message. Cheers!

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#140

Post by olenin »

olenin wrote: post #138

I couldn't either. No doubt many could. But that's not the point. What a wonderfully posed question with such broad relevance, especially for Australians ATM vis a vis the government's current attempted tussle with the omniscient platform. Please let this discussion grow. This is just a thank you message. Cheers!

P.S. as evidence of my incompetence I couldn't even operate the comments function correctly and posted twice ;)
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