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Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

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81–90 of 332 posts

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#81
post #5

Does it actually matter if I can? Is using reference material a bad thing? Edit: I know the article touches on that idea briefly but my argument would be "of course it doesn't matter". Sure, I could develop slightly faster with a more encyclopedic memory but I really doubt it would make an observable difference in the long-term. Most of my time isn't spent referencing libraries or syntax but instead I spend most of m…

That's the reason I do algorithmic whiteboard instead of full blown "real world" coding exercises. I don't care that someone memorized whatever command line syntax to create a new project in whatever framework. That's just rote. Even what we write on the whiteboard I don't expect it to compile. Is it ToString or toString? Can't recall either. What I care about is that someone can ask the relevant questions, come up w…

Last interview I had, I was encouraged to google and afterwards, we talked about the resources I sought out and how I used that information. It was a good experience - if it's a part of my job, why not make it a part of the interview?

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#82

I guess that depends on what an 'app' is. Can I knock up a site with some PHP/HTML/CSS without references - sure. Can I knock up a standard server side app - sure, but I'm gonna want to look up certain functions and what arguments they take. Can I put together an SPA without? Probably not. I know what I need to do, but I'm not going to remember which packages I need to install, or how they are configured, or if packa…

Yeah I guess I can crank out a basic CRUD-App without looking up anything. All depending on what app means. If I have to work with new technologies I clearly look up the best practices and different solutions to common problems but on my hometurf? I look into the source code to know my way around. It's quicker most of the time. Or I ask in the forums - is this allowed?

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#83
post #73
post #50

I would not be surprised if even Professional Web Developers cant do it. Especially if you include deployment. This isn't the old days of FTP, Perl or PHP anymore. There are too much information I cant memorise every single bit of it. And I dont think you should either. Especially in the age of Google. My memory capacity has its limit, and there are things I just decide it is not important enough to memorise when I c…

I remain living happily in the old days of PHP, somehow making functioning applications and being paid well. Life is easy and good.

Do you live in Europe?

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#84

Something that has dramatically reduced my reliance on outside resources is an editor that can lookup symbol definitions. I’m using Django and I used to use Sublime Text without any plugins which meant (at the time) it couldn’t automatically show me the definition of a function or object from a library, forcing me to search around for its documentation. Switching to PyCharm/IntelliJ meant I could now just Command-Cli…

I'd argue that's just having Google-lite built into your IDE. Personally I think that focusing on how you solve the problem loses sight of the fact that the only important thing is that you can accomplish the mission. If you can't build a basic web app on your own, but you can while salsa dancing w/ a mountain gorilla, I'll pay for your subscription to Spotify so you can stream Havana Kings while tearing up the dance…

Well, it's not really like having "Google-lite" built in because all of that information is available on your filesystem. It's more like knowing exactly where your site-packages are and being very skilled with grep or some other search tool.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#85
post #50

I would not be surprised if even Professional Web Developers cant do it. Especially if you include deployment. This isn't the old days of FTP, Perl or PHP anymore. There are too much information I cant memorise every single bit of it. And I dont think you should either. Especially in the age of Google. My memory capacity has its limit, and there are things I just decide it is not important enough to memorise when I c…

>I would not be surprised if even Professional Web Developers cant do it. Especially if you include deployment.

I'm pretty sure I could do it depending on our definition of basic web app. With something Rails it's not even really that hard. Rails g scaffold [Model] gets you 95% of the way there.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#86
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remain living happily in the old days of PHP, somehow making functioning applications and being paid well. Life is easy and good.

Do you live in Europe?

Or perhaps the Soviet Union.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#87
post #59
post #5

Does it actually matter if I can? Is using reference material a bad thing? Edit: I know the article touches on that idea briefly but my argument would be "of course it doesn't matter". Sure, I could develop slightly faster with a more encyclopedic memory but I really doubt it would make an observable difference in the long-term. Most of my time isn't spent referencing libraries or syntax but instead I spend most of m…

It's not a problem when you look up the spelling or the order of arguments in the reference. It's a problem when you search for the solution to every problem with a search engine. So many answers on the internet are written by absolute beginners, who happened to have the same problem, and then blogged about the solution after spending 5 minutes of googling. Sometimes these answers are alright, but often they are shal…

My preferred solution is to buy books. Find the best book on your topic and read a chapter, and you'll learn more than if you had googled 100 questions.

Books are also written by amateurs a lot of the time, especially if the topic is a bit niche. I've had people from publishers reach out to me to write a book about things based on a single blog post in the past.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#88
This is slightly perplexing. I love the intention of this post. Some thoughts..

I feel one could argue that there is a chicken-and-egg problem here. Nobody could code anything without a reference to start from. But, then, who developed the first language without a reference?

Ah, there - the start of something - those who invented the first programming languages - the very concept of "stored programs" as punches on a card, for example - assembly language, etc. - they did not have a reference. They invented the reference. But, it was also, by today's standards - much "simpler" and a much "smaller surface area" - while probably quite technologically complex and difficult for those at the time.

But after that, everyone else, who didn't invent the technology, but was rather using it.. was therefore - by definition - using a reference. Standing on the shoulders of giants... how else to learn?

For instance, I learned BASIC coding first by studying other people's examples - in magazines, by looking at code that came with my first compiler as samples, reading books. Same way I learned Pascal and C++ - the tooling/IDEs back then couldn't "help you learn" with autocomplete.. you learned when you wrote something, and it either compiled or it didn't. You learned by using "help" or books or talking to people or looking at examples.

I'd argue that even those who invent most things today are inventing it at a higher level of abstraction, and therefore still looking at references for levels below the level of abstraction they work at.

So.. "can you make a basic web app without googling"? Well, actually, yes, sure I can. But that is because I learned HTML, CSS, JS (and supporting languages like Perl, PHP, etc.) when the surface area was still small - from the Internet itself, by looking at examples and reading things like the entire HTML specification when it was smaller. Then I memorized it by doing it.. a lot. Then things changed, but a lot of the basics are still possible to do today and still work. That said - "will that basic web app work in every browser platform or any every server/OS platform that exists"? Well, if you stick to the true basics, possibly yes - but, this raises the question of technology and implementation variability and complexity.

I think the bigger question being posed here, isn't the headline... it would be better to ask, "does it matter if you can't make a basic web app without Googling"? There, I think, is the point of the post - and - yes, it matters in a lot of ways. But if you are coding for the web - presumably you are already using the web.. so.. perhaps that specifically is not as important as the next bigger question...

"Has writing code for modern systems become so diverse and complex, and the surface area so large, that it is difficult to build systems? Has the variability and diversity of our platforms become so large that it is difficult to build once/deploy many with certainty?". There again, I feel, is a much deeper and more interesting question. This too can be answered simply - avoid complexity and choose simpler languages/platforms that accomplish your goals, learn their surface area, and do your work. But, this might be more difficult/non-obvious to those just getting started - and there some good work could be done to make it more accessible.

And here we look to things, for example, like WASM - trying to build simple primitives that can work on nearly any platform, upon which many complex languages can live - engineering solutions to attempt at reducing complexity based on variability and diversity of platforms and implementations.

This question... surely relevant during this time of resurgence of "low/no-code" platforms and in relation to what we might have once thought of as "4GL" (or beyond) programming languages and related implementations/platforms.

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#89
post #5

Does it actually matter if I can? Is using reference material a bad thing? Edit: I know the article touches on that idea briefly but my argument would be "of course it doesn't matter". Sure, I could develop slightly faster with a more encyclopedic memory but I really doubt it would make an observable difference in the long-term. Most of my time isn't spent referencing libraries or syntax but instead I spend most of m…

Let's say Elon starts that colony on Mars and you think "Ima move there and write code for a living." You might have the internet, but its 15 minutes each direction. Nothing interactive works, and while they brought copies of Wikipedia, stack overflow didnt package so easily. Or more simply, can you write a web app without internet access?

You can cache documentation locally: https://devdocs.io/

Re: Can you make a basic web app without Googling? I can’t

#90
post #14

I used to program with 6 thick reference books around me. Has memorizing SDKs, APIs, libraries ever been a thing? Or is this just the daily "everything is bad nowadays" post?

Back in the days of PHP, I could develop web apps without references for the most part, using a simple text editor. It's a pretty similar story with Python too, unless I'm using Pandas, I generally don't use reference material much. Today with node/angular, I'm generally leaning on Google (well DDG) pretty heavily throughout the day. Web platforms seem substantially more complicated today than they used to be. Then a…

I read Python and PHP's offline .CHM files, and was quite happy with the level of information contained there.
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