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Police Say They Use Facial Recognition Despite Bans

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Re: Police Say They Use Facial Recognition Despite Bans

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American police don’t feel institutionally above the law, for all intents and purposes they are. Qualified immunity, a doctrine made up out of whole cloth by the courts, means that cops often can’t be prosecuted or even sued for the most egregious of conduct. And the lengths the courts will go to protect cops are ridiculous, to the point where the courts have upheld the idea that a cop didn’t know that attacking a su…

Qualified immunity, a doctrine made up out of whole cloth by the courts, means that cops often can’t be prosecuted or even sued for the most egregious of conduct. Qualified immunity has nothing to do with criminal liability, it is a civil affirmative defense and a sound one. Essentially, it provides personal protection for ordinary negligence. When an employee at Pottery Barn drops a plate, we don't deduct it from th…

> When an employee at Pottery Barn drops a plate, we don't deduct it from their paycheck. If we did, no one would work there.

Actually, in professions where we are talking about serious damages to people or property, the institution doesn’t cover it and makes the practitioners buy insurance. Can you imagine if Surgeons and Lawyers operated on this pottery barn standard?

Re: Police Say They Use Facial Recognition Despite Bans

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American police don’t feel institutionally above the law, for all intents and purposes they are. Qualified immunity, a doctrine made up out of whole cloth by the courts, means that cops often can’t be prosecuted or even sued for the most egregious of conduct. And the lengths the courts will go to protect cops are ridiculous, to the point where the courts have upheld the idea that a cop didn’t know that attacking a su…

Qualified immunity, a doctrine made up out of whole cloth by the courts, means that cops often can’t be prosecuted or even sued for the most egregious of conduct. Qualified immunity has nothing to do with criminal liability, it is a civil affirmative defense and a sound one. Essentially, it provides personal protection for ordinary negligence. When an employee at Pottery Barn drops a plate, we don't deduct it from th…

Surprisingly, police do fine in other countries without qualified immunity. And judges can strip QI, but this happens far, far too rarely. So maybe it shouldn't be the default.

Re: Police Say They Use Facial Recognition Despite Bans

#113
post #72

At some point governments will have to address the elephant in the room. Across much of the globe, modern police forces have been empowered and emboldened to such a degree that many departments, and their members, feel institutionally above the law. In no other occupation, that I can think of, can so many rules and directives be flouted without losing ones job, as is the case with modern police. Its frankly insulting…

American police don’t feel institutionally above the law, for all intents and purposes they are. Qualified immunity, a doctrine made up out of whole cloth by the courts, means that cops often can’t be prosecuted or even sued for the most egregious of conduct. And the lengths the courts will go to protect cops are ridiculous, to the point where the courts have upheld the idea that a cop didn’t know that attacking a su…

> And even when cops do finally cross the line, they just move towns or states and get a new job

And even though our collective awareness about this issue is increasing, this just happened yesterday:

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/28/961692068/officer-who-quit-wi...

Re: Police Say They Use Facial Recognition Despite Bans

#114
Yes, (Duh, wouldn't you?) I've said this before so I apologize in advance for repeating myself. Whether we like it or not ubiquitous surveillance is the new order of the day. You cannot put the technological genie back in the bottle. You can't enforce rules against using it without using it. We're stuck with what I call the "Tyranny of Mrs. Grundy"[1].

The primary result is that we should all work to make a humane tyranny (if such a thing is even possible; it sure sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it?)

Yes, your privacy is a social fiction, but in return, we can stop almost all crime.

Here's a not-entirely-hypothetical thought experiment for you: would you allow your life to be recorded and made public if it would prevent a child from being abducted?

I'm not a particularly good person (I do my best) and I like my privacy, but I think I would have to take that bargain. If it would prevent a kid from getting kidnapped, or someone getting raped, or murdered, or even just getting hit by a hit-and-run driver, that I would agree to have my life JenniCam'd[2]. The fact is, it's already happening. E.g. your smart phone uploads your location data which is then sold off. Your smart TV sends pictures of the screen to the cloud. Your smart router listens to your conversations. Your smart electricity meter sends telemetry. Smart streetlights know where the cars are, smart cars know where the people are (a fleet of networked self-driving cars (auto-autos) is a ubiquitous surveillance system.) Etc.

Imagine all the criminals who, when Snowden dropped his bombshell, only just then realized that the NSA already had all their dirty laundry.

[1] "Mrs Grundy is a figurative name for an extremely conventional or priggish person, a personification of the tyranny of conventional propriety. A tendency to be overly fearful of what others might think is sometimes referred to as grundyism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Grundy ("Grundiocracy"? Ew.)

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JenniCam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifecasting_(video_stream)

Re: Police Say They Use Facial Recognition Despite Bans

#116

When people unlawfully break into a building, why the heck shouldn't facial recognition be used to identify them? We are not talking about using cameras on the street to give people jaywalking tickets. If you owned a business that was looted, and you had video of the looters, wouldn't you want them caught?

>When people unlawfully break into a building, why the heck shouldn't facial recognition be used to identify them? Because trespass by itself is not a big enough crime to handle in that manner. Trespass is a crime that exists solely as a means to prosecute people for other not criminal enough to violate the letter of the law type behavior. There need to be other factors to make it worth tracking people down (theft, v…

> automate the sending of expired inspection sticker tickets

I think that's an excellent use of the technology. These are minor offences that would be too expensive and burdensome to pursue individually by hand. If it were enforced reliably, almost nobody would do be doing it.

People get charged a late penalty for not paying their power bill. It's enforced with 100% reliability. But expired inspection tickets is less obnoxious because you can just stop driving your car when it becomes illegal to do so. You can't just return electricity you already used but haven't paid for yet.

If you believe people should drive cars without safety certifications, that's a different issue. In that case, the solution isn't haphazard enforcement but no enforcement at all.

Re: Police Say They Use Facial Recognition Despite Bans

#117
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lovely theory which somehow manages to ignore the industrial-scale, inhuman abuses excused every day. There are far more examples of egregious abuse excused by the courts by QI than you can stomach looking at; just start searching. Feel free to quibble about all the 'good calls we don't hear about', and then dive in to 'second guessing split-second life or death situations'. We've all been through this discu…

That's a lovely theory which somehow manages to ignore the industrial-scale, inhuman abuses excused every day. On what planet? I'll admit, I don't do a ton of criminal work, but, I've spent more than my fair share of time sitting through criminal dockets observing cops and criminals and I just don't see it. My good friend won the last significant police brutality case in my metro of 2M people and that was 5 years ago…

It's not because you're afraid of the police, it's because the courts have made it clear that accountability is impossible and cases are pointless. The standard is that you can't convict an officer for constitutional violations unless there was clearly established precedent before the violation occurred. It's an obvious catch 22: to establish precedent you must convict an officer, but you can't convict them unless there was already precedent.

Maybe some court cases will help explain. Here's Mattos v. Agarano, where officers tased a defenseless, completely non-threatening pregnant woman for fun: https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2011/10/17/0...

A clear framing of the catch 22:

> In determining whether an officer is entitled to qualified immunity, we employ a two-step test: first, we decide whether the officer violated a plaintiff’s constitutional right; if the answer to that inquiry is “yes,” we proceed to determine whether the constitutional right was “clearly established in light of the specific context of the case” at the time of the events in question.

Even a general precedent isn't enough, you must find a previous incident relevant to the specific context of the case, which again is impossible because any officers in the past ~50 years would also have been protected by qualified immunity.

> In sum, Brooks’s alleged offenses were minor. She did not pose an immediate threat to safety of the officers or others. She actively resisted arrest insofar as she refused to get out of her car when instructed to do so and stiffened her body and clutched her steering wheel to frustrate the officers’ efforts to remove her from her car. Brooks did not evade arrest by flight, and no other exigent circumstances existed at the time. She was seven months pregnant, which the officers knew, and they tased her three times within less than one minute, inflicting extreme pain on Brooks.[10] A reasonable fact-finder could conclude, taking the evidence in the light most favorable to Brooks, that the officers’ use of force was unreasonable and therefore constitutionally excessive.

Of course, qualified immunity applied, there was no reason to further investigate the constitutional violation, case dismissed.

You can look at Kaufman County v. Winzer, where officers shot (17 times) and killed a mentally impaired man 6 seconds after seeing him, because a completely different man had shot at them and they were scared. https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/kaufman-county-t...

If you like, you can also read about how qualified immunity doesn't even achieve its alleged purpose, to shield officers from wasting time with discovery and other trial-related obligations. https://www.yalelawjournal.org/pdf/Schwartz_1ki1sac4.pdf

You can read a much better researched article on this topic from an actual legal scholar, rather than a random internet commenter: http://ndlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2-Schwartz...

You can read Jessop v. City of Fresno, where officers who literally stole $200,000+ could not be sued, because no officer before the advent of qualified immunity had been convicted of that particular crime, and the legislature hadn't thought to pass a law saying "police officers can't steal": https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2019/09/04/1...

> At the time of the incident, there was no clearly established law holding that officers violate the Fourth or Fourteenth Amendment when they steal property seized pursuant to a warrant. For that reason, the City Officers are entitled to qualified immunity.

Let me know how many more cases it will take to convince you, and I'll be happy to list them.

Re: Police Say They Use Facial Recognition Despite Bans

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If i report someome trying to kill me, i'd very much prefer the police to act immediately

IANAL, but I was under the impression that the police have no obligation help people. [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columb...

Oh my God, your country truly is fucked up, isn't it? I've lived in police states where the laws aren't steaming garbage like that.

Re: Police Say They Use Facial Recognition Despite Bans

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American police don’t feel institutionally above the law, for all intents and purposes they are. Qualified immunity, a doctrine made up out of whole cloth by the courts, means that cops often can’t be prosecuted or even sued for the most egregious of conduct. And the lengths the courts will go to protect cops are ridiculous, to the point where the courts have upheld the idea that a cop didn’t know that attacking a su…

Qualified immunity, a doctrine made up out of whole cloth by the courts, means that cops often can’t be prosecuted or even sued for the most egregious of conduct. Qualified immunity has nothing to do with criminal liability, it is a civil affirmative defense and a sound one. Essentially, it provides personal protection for ordinary negligence. When an employee at Pottery Barn drops a plate, we don't deduct it from th…

Yeah the criminal defense is through union action to ensure that police get extra time to manufacture stories and the like before evidence can be collected
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