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What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

jonbischke.com

141–149 of 149 posts

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#141
post #35

Having been poor (not 3rd world poor, poor by American standards) I found the most difficult thing is leaving the poverty stricken network. You don't feel like you've made it until you reject the entire mindset. Until then, you feel like you've sold out. My mother still makes me feel guilty and shames me every time I see her. Until you've had a parent who shames you for doing better than they did, you'll never unders…

I have had a sort of reverse experience, but which has led me to believe that poverty is a "contagious mindset, nothing more" as well: My family were academics, so our bank accounts were mostly empty, our clothes were pretty old, etc, but we grew in upper middle class New York. I pretended to be blue collar in my twenties, thinking I would be the next great socialist author. However, when I got sick of, well, being p…

> For the blue collar people ... the idea of getting a bunch of education and then becoming a manager was inconceivable and frankly immoral

Not for all of them, but for disturbingly many. The problem is exacerbated by peer pressure: as soon as one tries to change something, one is booed and labeled a social climber. Because many people base their morals on what their surrounding group believes to be right, becoming rich starts being perceived as immoral.

> However, the left says "there is no cultural problem" and the right says "screw em, its their own damn fault"

Far left says there is no cultural problem because it is infatuated with the culture of poverty itself. There is this belief among many leftists that being poor is "moral" while being rich is not. So the left considers the culture of the poor to be superior and more "authentic". Similarly, in a perverse twist, the far right believes that being rich is almost equal to being moral (because wealth is God's gift to men or some other such nonsense). Basically people like to imagine their corresponding social groups as being the most moral of all.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People develop those bad attitudes, viewpoints, or whatever, in large part because they are poor. The contagion aspect, if it exists, is secondary." I think this is the official leftist dogma, but I actually fail to see any obvious causality. I think it assumes that structural lack of opportunity (ie you qualified to be a surgeon, but the y only job you can get is shoeshine boy because you are black) leads to resent…

Official leftist dogma? Man, OK, I'll have to think about that. I'm not advocating a mindless "fight the rich" ideology, I'm not sure why you're getting that from my comment. The bit about preserving the elite wasn't meant in a way to suggest we need to eliminate the rich. I was primarily responding to this part in the parent comment: "Sending them to Harvard isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. Well, MAYBE…

Yeah, I think it is official leftist dogma, which isn't really a bad thing (I prefer it to rightist dogma at least). But, as Nietzsche reminds us, every dogma exists to help effect a subconscious will to power, whether you're a social worker or a capitalist.

From your second paragraph (with "that is probably related to not being around that particular mindset"), I think we all agree on the value of enculturation in a person's success, though we are all different in our connotations. I think he is playing "let's call a spade a spade" in his post.

I also don't think you are advocating fight the rich, but I do think you are channeling arguments that others have made uncritically. It's ok, we all do it, all the time.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're logic is a little too strict. Beginner positions, almost by definition, are lower responsibility and offer some leeway. Networks may expand returns on ability, but they can only guess at the real ability of a new person. Resumes anyone? Many startups right now say they are looking for "cultural fit" first and foremost, so even ability has limits. It would be convenient to assume that there are so many…

" a little too strict" -- I'm trying to be more concise, but my precision hasn't caught up yet. First, my point was that people don't succeed simply on network entry. I hope this is understood but I don't see it much reflected in the comments. Second, the point of networks is to reduce the guesswork. The network knows if Joe carried his college workgroups but sucked at tests, or if he aces tests but flakes out. It kn…

In the Tipping Point, Malcolm Gladwell said most people are referred by acquaintances, not close ties. Networks give you access to these people and their information is not perfect.

I'm only arguing your first point that networks expand returns on ability. This is just like VC's in the startup world. There are some very good startups that get few meetings with big investors because they have no connections. Even if you have a good product (or are smart), you can go unnoticed. Network expands ability, but the network's vision is limited to the acquaintances of the few people who are in it.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#144
post #35

Having been poor (not 3rd world poor, poor by American standards) I found the most difficult thing is leaving the poverty stricken network. You don't feel like you've made it until you reject the entire mindset. Until then, you feel like you've sold out. My mother still makes me feel guilty and shames me every time I see her. Until you've had a parent who shames you for doing better than they did, you'll never unders…

May I respectfully suggest that there are very different kinds of poverty, and that not all kinds of poverty are due to cultural choices. I came to the conclusion many years ago that in America poverty is a contagious mindset, nothing more. You are making very, very broad generalizations and stereotyping an entire socio-economic category of people. My parents grew up in rural Minnesota in absolute poverty. My father…

As a teacher in a ghetto school, and as a child of parents who grew up poor (and of grandparents who survived the great depression), let me help him make some distinctions.

I have noticed two distinct types of poverty. The first is the OP type: generational poverty based on dependence and a mind-set of either victimization or unbreakable poor choice habits. They are stuck. Getting these kids out of the situation, is as he says, nigh impossible. I've taught 1000s of these kids, and their upbringing, the habits they learn, and don't learn, the role models they have, are difficult to escape and change. A handful of students out of each grade somehow leave - and never come back. The one characteristic they all seem to share is that somewhere along the line (genetics or personality) they have a work ethic or type A character. Even so, they do not have the social skills to advance very far in their careers past college and entry-level job.

The second type is the working poor. They don't really exist anymore as I know them in my parent's generation. They bust ass in 16 hour days of hard labor, save money and penny pinch, always planning for the future. Now days, this attitude is found in many middle class families. My uncle won't even collect his SS check because "he doesn't need it." My relatives would rather starve than take anything from the government or even their local church.

The first type learns how to do the opposite: game the welfare and social system for every penny and benefit and get, even if it requires dishonesty. These people coach their children on what to say at school to the adults to ensure they get all of the free benefits, and to ensure we don't call welfare for an inspection of their homes or income.

/rant off

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had a sort of reverse experience, but which has led me to believe that poverty is a "contagious mindset, nothing more" as well: My family were academics, so our bank accounts were mostly empty, our clothes were pretty old, etc, but we grew in upper middle class New York. I pretended to be blue collar in my twenties, thinking I would be the next great socialist author. However, when I got sick of, well, being p…

> For the blue collar people ... the idea of getting a bunch of education and then becoming a manager was inconceivable and frankly immoral Not for all of them, but for disturbingly many. The problem is exacerbated by peer pressure: as soon as one tries to change something, one is booed and labeled a social climber. Because many people base their morals on what their surrounding group believes to be right, becoming r…

And everyone in the West agrees that nobody should get in and really muck around with the personality internals without permission, even if the person giving/ refusing permission is, like, five years old. And even though it happens anyway.

I am under the impression that other cultural traditions don't have the same value on the "transcendent subject" -- it is easier for them to support training regimes that internalize outside values. Both viewpoints -- ok, not ok -- have their pluses and minuses. We can eradicate cultures and personal viewpoints with enough training, but it is hard to decide when a culture or personality should be eradicated or not. And the left knee-jerks to don't eradicate, period (protecting some really wacked criminal shit along with that). The right knee-jerks to there is only one correct, traditional way, screwing over those who disagree (train alternative viewpoints out of them, or kill/ marginalize them).

I hope readers will understand that not everyone on either side ignores the complexity and relies and their reflexes, but, sadly, the term "knee-jerk" applies to most.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was like 12 or 13, my dad (an attorney) was doing some patent work for an MIT grad student who later went on to be a professor of CS. I was interested in computers at the time and trying to teach myself, and as a favor, my dad asked him to show me a few things. He ended up teaching me Scheme, getting me to commit to an open-source 3D engine and work on computer vision stuff over the course of my early high sch…

Maybe there are some problems with the mindset of the poor, but I think that part of the problem is that I am probably going to find this kid through my own middle-class network and continue to perpetuate a culture of mentorship that is often inaccessible to the poor. So don't... make it a point to consciously seek out a way to connect with someone who wouldn't usually have a chance to work with someone like you. Fin…

Easier said than done. Unfortunately, as indicated elsewhere in the thread, being poor becomes a mindset. Regardless of how it got started, it ends up there and it's hard to break. Personally, I've tried to help 2 or 3 poor kids just recently. I showed them how easy it is to program, I explained to them why it is one of the few professions with low barrier to entry and literally no limits on potential and I showed them the fruits of my labor (i.e. my coolest and most expensive toys). The result? None of them took a single step on their own. I just couldn't get them interested. One still imagines he's going to get rich making music somehow (yes, I explained why that, frankly, isn't going to happen for him), the others didn't even bother with a plan.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Official leftist dogma? Man, OK, I'll have to think about that. I'm not advocating a mindless "fight the rich" ideology, I'm not sure why you're getting that from my comment. The bit about preserving the elite wasn't meant in a way to suggest we need to eliminate the rich. I was primarily responding to this part in the parent comment: "Sending them to Harvard isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. Well, MAYBE…

Yeah, I think it is official leftist dogma, which isn't really a bad thing (I prefer it to rightist dogma at least). But, as Nietzsche reminds us, every dogma exists to help effect a subconscious will to power, whether you're a social worker or a capitalist. From your second paragraph (with "that is probably related to not being around that particular mindset"), I think we all agree on the value of enculturation in a…

There's not many original ideas around regarding this stuff, and even fewer plausible explanations, I'm afraid most people will usually sound like they're repeating other peoples' ideas.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I think it is official leftist dogma, which isn't really a bad thing (I prefer it to rightist dogma at least). But, as Nietzsche reminds us, every dogma exists to help effect a subconscious will to power, whether you're a social worker or a capitalist. From your second paragraph (with "that is probably related to not being around that particular mindset"), I think we all agree on the value of enculturation in a…

There's not many original ideas around regarding this stuff, and even fewer plausible explanations, I'm afraid most people will usually sound like they're repeating other peoples' ideas.

My point is more that people repeat other people ideas uncritically. Then we have lack of progress.

While I was criticizing you for it, in good faith, I do it myself all the time. It isn't that you should stop repeating other people's ideas, just that you (and I) should be in the habit of wondering "where did that come from? what does it imply that I might not be thinking of? who benefits by the propagation of that idea?" etc

In the case of the leftist dogma, I think there are incorrect assumptions about (1) resentment, (2) cultural diffusion, and (3) fault. Even if you don't share them when you examine it, that argument has a lot of baggage.

Re: What Really Keeps Poor People Poor

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not many original ideas around regarding this stuff, and even fewer plausible explanations, I'm afraid most people will usually sound like they're repeating other peoples' ideas.

My point is more that people repeat other people ideas uncritically . Then we have lack of progress. While I was criticizing you for it, in good faith, I do it myself all the time. It isn't that you should stop repeating other people's ideas, just that you (and I) should be in the habit of wondering "where did that come from? what does it imply that I might not be thinking of? who benefits by the propagation of that…

How do you know if I'm being uncritical about it? You're putting the cart before the horse.
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