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ProtonMail, Tutanota urging EU to reconsider encryption rules

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Re: ProtonMail, Tutanota urging EU to reconsider encryption rules

#71

Post by b6z »

diego_moita wrote: post #45

In the end, it doesn't matter. These are email companies. But end to end encrypted email is a mess and hard to implement when everyone else doesn't follow a standard. With or without EU's snooping what is more likely to happen is that people will migrate to messaging systems that the EU can't snoop: WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc. That will happen either because they're more private or because everyone else is there…

> These are email companies.

ProtonMail and Tutanota, yes. Threema does secure messaging, Tresorit encrypted file hosting.

> With or without EU's snooping what is more likely to happen is that people will migrate to messaging systems that the EU can't snoop: WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, etc.

Well, at least here in Germany people are more likely to migrate away from WhatsApp to Threema, Signal or Telegram.

Re: ProtonMail, Tutanota urging EU to reconsider encryption rules

#74

Post by koonsolo »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #34
koonsolo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a trade-off. Of course I want to preserve my privacy. But I get it that law enforcement wants to be able to look into communications. Let's say they find a terrorist (I'm close to Brussels, so not a hypothetical scenario here). Best case you want to see which phones they have, and look into all their communication to get an idea about their contacts etc. It's a very hard problem, and I'm not sure which one I wou…

Or perhaps you figure out why terrorism exists and work towards preventing it, instead of spying on your population and violating their rights “just in case”?

I don't believe you can prevent crime with prevention alone.

Re: ProtonMail, Tutanota urging EU to reconsider encryption rules

#75

Post by secondraft »

simonh wrote: post #66
secondraft wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim that somebody thinks it is reasonable policy to ban e2ee. Who is that exactly? Consider this section from the resolution: Striking a right balance The principle of security through encryption and security despite encryption must be upheld in its entirety. The European Union continues to support strong encryption. Encryption is an anchor of confidence in digitalisation and in protection of fundamental rights…

You're right that they don't want to ban E2E, they want to mandate that they hold the keys to all E2E though.

This is your conclusion but it is not stated anywhere in the resolution.

Re: ProtonMail, Tutanota urging EU to reconsider encryption rules

#76

Post by koonsolo »

rakoo wrote: post #42
koonsolo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a trade-off. Of course I want to preserve my privacy. But I get it that law enforcement wants to be able to look into communications. Let's say they find a terrorist (I'm close to Brussels, so not a hypothetical scenario here). Best case you want to see which phones they have, and look into all their communication to get an idea about their contacts etc. It's a very hard problem, and I'm not sure which one I wou…

Look at the existing cases of terrorism. All of them used unencrypted forms of communication: shared Gmail account, phone calls, even good old SMS. The issue is not that police can't see what those people are doing, none of the perpretators are unknown; it's that they (and the judiciary branch) don't have enough resources to really tackle them.

I partly agree with you.

But right now, it's pretty easy to use end-to-end encrypted forms of communication, so why still use sms?

Knowing the suspects and having limited resources, seems to me a argument for listening into communication, not an argument against it.

Re: ProtonMail, Tutanota urging EU to reconsider encryption rules

#77

Post by ceilingcorner »

koonsolo wrote: post #74
ceilingcorner wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps you figure out why terrorism exists and work towards preventing it, instead of spying on your population and violating their rights “just in case”?

I don't believe you can prevent crime with prevention alone.

Crime? Or terrorism?

Re: ProtonMail, Tutanota urging EU to reconsider encryption rules

#79

Post by fetbaffe »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #34
koonsolo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a trade-off. Of course I want to preserve my privacy. But I get it that law enforcement wants to be able to look into communications. Let's say they find a terrorist (I'm close to Brussels, so not a hypothetical scenario here). Best case you want to see which phones they have, and look into all their communication to get an idea about their contacts etc. It's a very hard problem, and I'm not sure which one I wou…

Or perhaps you figure out why terrorism exists and work towards preventing it, instead of spying on your population and violating their rights “just in case”?

I think that todays terrorism is mainly state sponsored, terrorist organisation use different types of resentment when recruiting new members, however many of the terrorist organisations are funded by governments around the world, this is the modern form of covert warfare in the post cold war era.

What we have is that one government, lets call it the States of Merica, funds & trains freedom fighters in a country called Lyria. Sometime after this Lyria is thrown into huge & devastating civil war against the regime where the opposing terrorist forms a new entity, the Salami State.

The civil war results in massive refugee crisis. Refugees flees north into the big trade union called Äuropean Club, ÄC. ÄC happens to be allied with States of Merica. Terrorists from the Salami State infiltrates the refugees and travels to ÄC where they commit a horrific terrorist attack in the capital city of Sirap. President of the States of Merica is chocked by these horrible news and pledges to help it's friends in the ÄC.

This leads the ÄC to adopt surveillance measures to track any potential terrorist. To its help it uses the knowhow and infrastructure from their close friends States of Merica (obviously).

When the civil war in Lyria nears it end and the Salami State is almost defeated, suddenly the winning Lyrian regime commits a gas attack on innocent civilians in a Salami State stronghold. ÄC and States of Merica condemns the gas attack and bombs the Lyrian regime as punishment. The freedom fighters rejoice because they now can fight for freedom a few more years.

The Salami State still exists and continue to get help from somewhere, unknown by whom, and commits more terrorist attacks in ÄC, in cities like Ockholm and Womanchester, because ÄC still haven't fixed it's border problem, but coincidentally ÄC has instead developed an excellent surveillance program, which is if course needed when the border is wide opened to the Salami state, duh!

All this is of course highly speculative and shares no resemblance with the real world.

So yes, if we fix terrorism because of like uh poverty, it can probably be solved.

Re: ProtonMail, Tutanota urging EU to reconsider encryption rules

#80

Post by secondraft »

extrememota wrote: post #31
secondraft wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim that somebody thinks it is reasonable policy to ban e2ee. Who is that exactly? Consider this section from the resolution: Striking a right balance The principle of security through encryption and security despite encryption must be upheld in its entirety. The European Union continues to support strong encryption. Encryption is an anchor of confidence in digitalisation and in protection of fundamental rights…

From the same document. I do not see how this is technically possible. > Technical solutions for gaining access to encrypted data must comply withthe principles of legality, transparency, necessity and proportionalityincluding protection of personal data by design and by default.

If focusing on e2ee I agree, but how about hardware and software supply chains? How much is your e2ee worth if you are up against Apple or Google? Perhaps nation states are simply looking for similar powers?
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