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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#831

Post by chrisco255 »

dangoor wrote: post #629
chrisco255 wrote: post #469

I think it's nuts for a modern democracy to allow for anything but open source software being used to count paper ballots with chain-of-custody records, voter ID validation, biometric markings, and redacted ballots being published on the web for all to view and count independently. Software systems can easily be hacked, and it isn't easy to inspect and tell. A vote is a one time, one sided transaction. It's not as ea…

They need only do [risk-limiting audits]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk-limiting_audit ) (which some states did do!) to verify the results.

Whose risk are they trying to limit by not doing a full audit?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#832

Post by dragonwriter »

rsynnott wrote: post #824
dragonwriter wrote: post #820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several US states have criminal libel laws that might protect a company (particularly if the company is a bank or other financial institution, which seem to be the most common to be specifically protected.)

Are there any recent (this century) examples of _successful_ criminal libel actions in the US? I would've thought it'd be fairly clearly unconstitutional.

> Are there any recent (this century) examples of _successful_ criminal libel actions in the US?

This century is very young for laws that were never frequently invoked, but, yes, at least one in Kansas in 2002:

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/941/criminal-li...

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#833

Post by chrisco255 »

maxerickson wrote: post #757
luxuryballs wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but those people existing doesn’t change the actual merits of the idea itself.

Which idea? Requiring id and then making it hard to get doesn't have a lot of merit if there aren't a bunch of people exploiting the lack of id checks.

Who doesn't have an ID in 2020? You can't fly without one. You can't drive without one. You can't go to a bar without one. You can't book a hotel in most cases without one. It just seems like people are arguing that edge cases exist and therefore we cant require ID. There is no conspiracy against people getting an ID in 2020. Everybody very much wants you to have one.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#834

Post by maxerickson »

chrisco255 wrote: post #833
maxerickson wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which idea? Requiring id and then making it hard to get doesn't have a lot of merit if there aren't a bunch of people exploiting the lack of id checks.

Who doesn't have an ID in 2020? You can't fly without one. You can't drive without one. You can't go to a bar without one. You can't book a hotel in most cases without one. It just seems like people are arguing that edge cases exist and therefore we cant require ID. There is no conspiracy against people getting an ID in 2020. Everybody very much wants you to have one.

None of that is an argument for requiring an id to vote though, it's just things you think it would be ridiculous to go without.

If someone has registered and voted in the past and has an expired id, should they be excluded from voting if they don't renew in time? Even though registration is already a sufficient barrier to fraud?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#835

Post by jessaustin »

rayiner wrote: post #695
RHSeeger wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a general rule of thumb, if you make an extraordinary claim, the burden lies on your to provide proof if you want to be believed. Claiming that there was widespread election fraud, including by the companies making some of the devices, is an extraordinary claim. It doesn't appear there's been any proof provided to back up those extraordinary claims. As such, they can, and should, be ignored.

Can we apply this standard to all propaganda intended to delegitimize elections? E.g. claims that Voter ID laws reduce turnout. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/21/18230009/v...

How do you feel about purging minority voters? Are we allowed to complain about that?

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/514813-georgia-accu...

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#836

Post by [deleted] »

unanswered wrote: post #358
HelloMcFly wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your original comment is flagged and I can't see it so did not watch the video. I believe my comment is relevant to the one I replied to: I do not trust Scott Adams to present his content with any integrity at all, and so sending me a video he clipped together to make a point is not what I'd consider "good evidence". He does not act in good faith, he works backwards from a conclusion. If Steven Miller made a similar…

Corporate wants you to find the difference between these two pictures: "All black people know each other" "Everyone I disagree with is the same person"

[deleted]

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#837

Post by ChrisLomont »

NLips wrote: post #733
ChrisLomont wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the UK rules on spoilt ballots [1]. Here's [2] an article showing that such removed ballots sometimes get a larger share than a candidate, and that the rate is larger than the close state elections the US just had. Here's [3] some UK elections where 2.9% of all ballots were discarded because they were filled out wrong. So I don't think the UK evidence shows what you claim it does. The smallest UK spoilt ballot…

All of those spoilt ballot examples are where the proportion of spoiled ballots is high because voters are protesting. They don’t combat the claim that inadvertently spoiled ballots are rare, nor that spoiled ballots open to the possibility of fraud.

So you're claiming that the Florida study doesn't measure spoilt ballots by technology, despite them specifically stating how they normalized for errors? You're basically calling them liars. Have a citation showing your evidence to make such a claim?

Or maybe you didn't read the study....

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#838

Post by NLips »

ChrisLomont wrote: post #837
NLips wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those spoilt ballot examples are where the proportion of spoiled ballots is high because voters are protesting. They don’t combat the claim that inadvertently spoiled ballots are rare, nor that spoiled ballots open to the possibility of fraud.

So you're claiming that the Florida study doesn't measure spoilt ballots by technology, despite them specifically stating how they normalized for errors? You're basically calling them liars. Have a citation showing your evidence to make such a claim? Or maybe you didn't read the study....

My apologies regarding the Florida study; I only intended to address the references you had to UK ballots, given the context of this thread.

On the Florida study. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but it read to me like the punchcard system was worst, followed by ballots scanned by a computer at the precinct, then "other", which is the two counties using other system that sound quite different to each other. It wasn't clear to me at all that they had any sort of rating of how many inadvertently spoiled ballots came from hand written, hand counted systems vs others. I'll readily admit that I'm not any kind of statistics expert though, so the study wasn't straightforward for me to follow.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#839

Post by nealmcb2 »

yesdocs wrote: post #8

I hope whatever happens with these lawsuits it chills the baseless accusations of voter fraud used to undermine voter confidence in our democracy

The best overview of this mess is from Cory Doctorow, who notes that while the claims of fraud in this election are garbage, the voting machines, and especially overused Ballot-marking devices (BMDs), are also hugely problematic.

Voting machines didn’t steal the election. But they’re a terrible technology. - The Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/02/03/voting-mac...

And worst of all is ES&S' threats against folks who point out those legitimate flaws, e.g. SMART Elections, a journalism and advocacy group in NY.

ESS voting machine company sends threats https://freedom-to-tinker.com/2021/01/11/ess-voting-machine-...

What we need is evidence-based elections:

Evidence-Based Elections: Create a Meaningful Paper Trail, then Audit Andrew W. Appel* & Philip B. Stark* Georgetown Law Technology Review 2020 https://georgetownlawtechreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/...

And though we have improving evidence for correct tabulations in the recent elections, many states still aren't doing a good job providing evidence for ballot eligibility or chain-of-custody.

The best way to promote confidence in our democracy is to calmly stick to facts, not be swayed by politics, and work to make things better. For more on how we've done that in Colorado and elsewhere, see my page at http://bcn.boulder.co.us/~neal/elections/corla/

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