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Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

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Re: Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

#321

Post by spiralx »

nl wrote: post #125

Why does all discussion on HN devolve into a "yes; all speech should be free" vs "no; any censorship is reasonable" discussion. There are sophisticated discussions around the limits of free speech available ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#Tolerance... ) and yet no one attempts to address them. It's pretty frustrating to see another "oh no censorship = bad", which is a complete strawman argument.

Labelling one side of the arguments as "pro-censorship" is hardly a good faith interpretation of said positions that is likely to lead to nuanced discussion now is it?

Discussion of this issue on HN started semi-reasonably and has gotten worse and worse rapidly. There's nothing to be gained on the subject here other than occasionally satisfying my morbid curiosity about whether it has gotten even worse than the last time I looked.

Re: Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

#322

Post by root_axis »

sneak wrote: post #174
root_axis wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is being hunted, that's pretty hyperbolic. If YouTube were silencing protests I wouldn't like that, but I don't rely on YouTube to understand what's going on in the world and I would encourage anyone concerned about YouTube's content policy to consider visiting other websites on the internet in addition to YouTube.

> If YouTube were silencing protests I wouldn't like that, but I don't rely on YouTube to understand what's going on in the world A lot of people do. You can't really find out what's going on in the world from the mainstream media in any real resolution or detail, and "other websites on the internet" don't generally have thousands and thousands of people livestreaming actual live video of what's happening . Perhaps t…

The overwhelming majority of YouTube content is junk, people shouldn't rely on it to stay informed, at best, they should cherry-pick a few quality sources to supplement others. Yes, there are some people who rely exclusively on YouTube just like there are some that rely exclusively on Fox News to stay informed, in both cases it is the responsibility of the media consumer to make better choices.

Re: Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

#323

Post by nl »

refurb wrote: post #221
nl wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That summary is a direct copy and paste from the Wikipedia link I posted and references in that quote. And yeah, I have read Popper as well as Wikipedia. Saying "it's not accurate" isn't accurate.

Ok, but you selectively quoted a part that makes it sound like Popper is fine not tolerating any intolerance. He wasn’t. He basically said you tolerate intolerance as much as you can without risking the collapse of social order. Big difference.

> you selectively quoted a part that makes it sound like Popper is fine not tolerating any intolerance

I copied and pasted the entirety of the top section of Wikipedia with no editing. That section says "if a society is tolerant without limit" (my emphasis) which goes to your point that there is a threshold here.

Re: Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

#324

Post by 452345435 »

Biden's DoJ just arrested a guy for posting misleading election memes back in 2016:

> https://nypost.com/2021/01/27/alt-right-twitter-troll-ricky-...

> Written on the photograph was the message, “Avoid the Line. Vote from Home. Text ‘Hillary’ to 59925. Vote for Hillary and be a part of history,” the complaint states.

> More than 4,900 people, encouraged by the misinformation campaign, cast their vote via text, officials said.

> “There is no place in public discourse for lies and misinformation to defraud citizens of their right to vote,” said Acting US Attorney for the Eastern District of New York Seth DuCharme.

Anyone dumb enough to think they could vote by sending a text message frankly shouldn't be voting. (I didn't vote in 2016, if it matters.)

And lies and disinfo are traditionally protected speech. Even lying about military service (without any intent to defraud) is protected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Alvarez

The "it's a private company" argument is out the window.

Re: Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

#325

Post by allarm »

tylermenezes wrote: post #171
emptyparadise wrote: post #46

My question to everyone supporting restrictions on speech and supporting privacy violations, even for good reasons, is this: are you prepared to have these tools fall into the wrong hands? The same methods used to quickly shut down a dangerous website or to track down a terrorist by their online posts can be used to silence protests and to hunt down political opposition.

Yes. This isn't the government hunting down political opposition, this is a private company saying "hey, neonazis go somewhere else". If a different private company wants to host the neonazis, they can go for it. It turns out it's /difficult/ for them because most people find them repulsive. I don't hear anyone making this argument for child abuse images for what it's worth.

That’s because child abuse images are objective while “neonazis” are not.

Regarding the “different private company”. Some of your people are already trying to deplatform Telegram now, because those “neonazis” went there after they were banned everywhere else.

I have been using this platform to connect with my family for years and now all of a sudden my family and I are supporters of the “neonazi” movement somehow, because of how broad the definition of “neonazi” is, for the American left wing activists.

Maybe you are okay with the collateral damage “for the greater good” but I am not willing to make this sacrifice to satisfy the American left-wingers and their witch hunt. I sympathize with the idea, but no, thank you. Please, think of another solution for your problems.

Maybe, just maybe, you need to somehow use the law system of your country to stop them criminals? Or, in case they don’t do anything illegal (I’m not implying that they don’t, I’ve no idea) - maybe you just leave them be until they do something illegal? And then like catch them and stuff? And leave me my Telegram to call my mum every evening?

Or - wow, even crazier idea - you do not ban them at all, but instead of that you follow their threads and actually prevent them from doing anything illegal when they starting to discuss it? My guess it would be much easier to do when you have this kind of transparency.

I understand it’s not that easy as massive bans of everything that moves in a slightly different direction than yours, but this would probably be the right way. Thanks in advance.

Re: Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

#326

Post by 452345435 »

452345435 wrote: post #324

Biden's DoJ just arrested a guy for posting misleading election memes back in 2016: > https://nypost.com/2021/01/27/alt-right-twitter-troll-ricky-... > Written on the photograph was the message, “Avoid the Line. Vote from Home. Text ‘Hillary’ to 59925. Vote for Hillary and be a part of history,” the complaint states. > More than 4,900 people, encouraged by the misinformation campaign, cast their vote via text, offici…

To the downvoters: posting nasty, misleading memes on Twitter shouldn't warrant a prison sentence of upto 10 years. This will be a test case, not just for the First Amendment, but for the leftists who until now have been able to dodge the issue with the "it's a private company" line.

Re: Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

#327

Post by andrewprock »

Const-me wrote: post #245
andrewprock wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first step in that process is restoring net neutrality.

I support net neutrality, but why do you think that should be the first step?

That ensures that ISPs and backbones cannot be the ones applying content guidelines.

Re: Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

#328

Post by Const-me »

edmundsauto wrote: post #314
Const-me wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How are they different than algorithmic ordering that we agree to in the TOS? People [would be] consuming the spam content being filtered agree with the filtering and are generally happy with it. Failing that, when people are unhappy with their spam filter they can adjust or disable it. As a last resort, they can migrate to another e-mail provider, there's no monopoly on e-mail. Moreover, e-mail is delivered almost…

Interesting points. I don’t think I’m fully sold on it - something like Tinder would seem to be an interesting thought experiment, where people are unable to move due to network effects. I definitely appreciate you taking the rime to respond. I’m just not sure that I agree that a network effect is monopolistic. It feels more akin to losing a feature by switching off gmail. Definitely valid points about turning off th…

> I’m just not sure that I agree that a network effect is monopolistic.

A natural monopoly is a monopoly in an industry in which high infrastructural costs and other barriers to entry relative to the size of the market give the largest supplier in an industry, often the first supplier in a market, an overwhelming advantage over potential competitors.

Source there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly

A social network is very similar to railroad network, electricity distribution network, or landline phone network. Yet we allow Facebook or Youtube to do whatever they please with the servers they own, while regulating the hell out of the older ones.

Re: Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

#329

Post by cbozeman »

rat87 wrote: post #316
cbozeman wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and I get that. My point is, "Why is that YouTube's problem?" What does it say about our society, where people will commit murder for publicity, thus totally and utterly destroying their lives, almost certainly for life, just for some validation of their existence? I just cannot get shake the feeling its our culture that has a serious problem, not our tech platforms.

Because YouTube shows video to billions of users and it has a responsibility to avoid spreading Hateful propoganda

> it has a responsibility to avoid spreading Hateful propoganda

Maybe people have a responsibility to themselves to ascertain the truth themselves, without Big Brother telling them what to think, when to think it, and how to think about it.

Re: Silicon Valley is shutting down speech loopholes. Latest target: live content

#330

Post by cbozeman »

jusssi wrote: post #273
cbozeman wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well too goddamn bad. That's part of life in a post-Enlightenment world. You don't get to have the all the great shit without all the worst shit along with it. The very nature of freedom means at some point, someone is going to do something you don't like. And I don't mean the mosque shooting. That was illegal. I mean part of having a free society means you have put up with people saying crazy nonsensical bullshit th…

Put a hundred people in a row. Punch them all in the face. Most of them will be fine, at least eventually. A couple might develop permanent cognitive issues, or even die. But most of them will be fine. Yet it is not a reason for us to give people the permission (let's face it, you can't take away the freedom, they'll do it if they want to) to punch others in the face. Maybe some day people will acknowledge that publi…

Maybe some day people will acknowledge that the Universe isn't a pleasant place and that sometimes you're going to be exposed to unpleasant shit, and you need to cultivate some fortitude to deal with it.
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