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IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

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Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a problem of unnecessarily complicated tax laws.

IKEA also has a will to abuse them to a degree that their peers don’t, and we should judge them as less ethical for it.

There's simply no other furniture retailer the size of IKEA, by far. So we actually don't have anyone else to compare to.

Someone defending IKEA could argue that if companies like Walmart of Target, which I think are the closest competitors to IKEA, were in the same position they would do even more nefarious tax evasion. It's a "lesser evil" argument but it does ring kind of true.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#572

It's none of my business if Ikea wants to buy productive forest land and take it out of production. However, I don't understand how it is any kind of signal of virtue. Would it be virtuous to buy productive farm land and take it out of circulation? How is forest land any different? In a previous life, it would be broadly correct to say that I worked in the forest industry. My body still hurts when I think about it. I…

I think you're being disingenuous if you're saying you don't know the difference between an old growth forest and a 25 year old monoculture stand of trees which is due to be clear-cut and replanted.

Kind of irrelevant to the article which you're commenting on though because they're not buying productive forest land to take it out of production, they're buying productive forest land to continue managing and harvesting it, rather to keep it from being rezoned and developed.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#573
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But don't you want something more substantial and created with more craft? No. My furniture is...part of the furniture. I care about it being practical. I don't care about its heritage. IKEA quality is perfectly adequate for me, so I'm not inclined to pay for any more. I also appreciate light furniture that can be moved easily. Furniture that is more "substantial" and made from real wood[1], for example, is far mor…

And that's fine, that's how some people view food and they're happy with junk food in the same way people are happy with junk furniture. Junk food and junk furniture are both consistent, cheap, simple, unsurprising, available anywhere, and sometimes that's what people want. But that's what it is - junk furniture.

Junk furniture probably won't give you diabetes.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#574
post #423
post #256

I never understood why people hate IKEA. Yes it's cheap. Yes it doesn't last a lifetime. Yes it needs a lot of wood. Yes it's highly optimized. But guess what, IKEA is a business responding to the needs of people. The negatives that are mentioned frequently are merely a symptom of our ever faster developing society. The people who complain are the same ones that just buy cheap crap from china without even thinking ab…

A close friend of mine filled his house entirely with furniture, including couches, from the 1800s. Antique grandfather clocks, pianos, tables, armoires, etc. Not surprisingly, this person is highly skilled with wood and works at a small furniture shop that makes high-quality tables and chairs. Things made out of wood can last centuries. There's no need to further accelerate our throwaway culture with throwaway furni…

My problem with antique hardwood furniture is that the logistics of delivery and assembly are sometimes too much for me to handle. If I hire movers and a carpenter to assemble it gets expensive and out of my reach very quickly. I'd love to learn some carpentry and also how to drive and also get a truck, but I don't love it as much as I love my other crafty or spending based hobbies, and I don't have room for a shop or parking space for a truck.

Most of my IKEA stuff can't even leave the room it's in without disassembly. I just leave them behind when I move or actually have to pay for someone to dismantle them and take them away from the place. Not sure if they sell them as scrap or as furniture but it's cheap because they get to keep whatever they helped me get rid of. Also sometimes I've just put it for free on Craigslist and they last days and get taken.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#575
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tax evasion" refers to illegal actions to indeed evade tax lawfully due. "Tax avoidance" is the perfectly legal practice of (more or less aggressively) minimising the amount of tax lawfully due. Everyone engages in tax avoidance at least to a degree.

People don’t like thinking this way... it’s difficult for a lot of people to grasp, for example, that if they have children and claim those children as a deduction they are thereby avoiding federal income taxes. Individuals avail themselves of the parts of the tax code that benefit them just like Big Corps do. You are not required to claim offspring as a deduction, so I guess by the logic of many people in this threa…

Obligatory quote from Judge Learned Hand:

"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands."

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that goes for all couches, ikea or not, doesn't it? That wasn't the question here.

...but other couches are built to last, so repair is much less commonly needed.

How many years does it have to last, before it's "built to last?" I've seen lots of Ikea couches that have lasted a long time.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#577
post #569

It's none of my business if Ikea wants to buy productive forest land and take it out of production. However, I don't understand how it is any kind of signal of virtue. Would it be virtuous to buy productive farm land and take it out of circulation? How is forest land any different? In a previous life, it would be broadly correct to say that I worked in the forest industry. My body still hurts when I think about it. I…

The difference in this particular case is that Ikea is not taking productive forest land and taking it out of production. It is taking naturally forested land that is at risk of deforestation that would ostensibly then be used for a monoculture wood farming industry. If this land was used for timber, it would reduce biodiversity in Georgia. That would unquestionably be a bad outcome for the environment. Deforestation…

I take the point. Removing land from the potential to be developed is different from removing land from production.

Not that anyone is saying this directly, but I disagree with the argument that good, productive land left fallow is better than good productive land that is producing.

My brother makes a living and feeds his family based on his wood lot. Traces of original settlers from nearly two hundred years ago are found throughout the forest. Which is to say, it is pretty obvious now that it was not suited for farming.

But as forest, it is wonderful. There are at least six species of viable commercial trees at scale. Maple, oak, cedar, black cherry, pine. Most original species, or those introduced by the original indigenous people or the first settlers. The crab apple trees pop up in strange places.

My brother has a government approved forestry management plan that takes from the forest each year far, far less than what the forest produces. The forest will remain diverse and support a family well, indefinitely.

The trees are coming out in a managed way that is creating trails, with clear evidence that wildlife is making good use of the trails. Across the forest, he has installed a wide assortment of habitat for species at risk, birds, bats and others, several of which had not been seen in the area for generations - and they are being used! Under the managed forest, wildlife is returning in which there is no evidence had been there for at least two generations. This wildlife is moving into the adjacent conservation authority land, not the other way around.

If this was not an owned and managed forest, this would be happening at a much slower rate.

If I had to compare that against a plan that left the land alone, I'd tilt my hand to the one that actually supported people, in harmony with nature.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#578
post #256

I never understood why people hate IKEA. Yes it's cheap. Yes it doesn't last a lifetime. Yes it needs a lot of wood. Yes it's highly optimized. But guess what, IKEA is a business responding to the needs of people. The negatives that are mentioned frequently are merely a symptom of our ever faster developing society. The people who complain are the same ones that just buy cheap crap from china without even thinking ab…

Exactly.

>it's cheap. Yes it doesn't last a lifetime.

It lasts longer than most people think. I have a few IKEA dressers that I bought in 2012 that still look like new. Will they become antiques? No, but I only paid 80 dollars for them so I don't care.

>Yes it needs a lot of wood.

Carbon sink. Better than plastic.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A 401k has the specific purpose of helping individuals fund their retirement years, something society has agreed is worth providing some benefit for. There is an element of intention to the exemption and it serves a specific purpose. A 401k has the specific purpose of helping large businesses maintain a competitive advantage over small businesses. If the government wanted to help individuals fund their retirement ye…

While there are certainly issues in the tax code, you’re absolutely just making up the history and intent of the 401k. The 401k was not setup to help big business, quite the opposite. They were setup as an explicit alternative to the pension systems that historically were how employees retired, and pensions absolutely favor large companies that can afford them. 401k programs allow much more employee choice and mobili…

Whatever the history is, it's been 40+ years since it started, and legislators have subsequently gone through a lot of effort to create a two tier system (IRAs vs 401k) which heavily favors employees of large businesses than can afford to pay high wages.

When something so blatantly tilted towards the rich, white collar world exists, and can so easily be fixed (by simply matching the terms of the IRA to the 401k), and has not been fixed for over 4 decades, I then take it to be intentional.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#580
post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, trickle down economics is just fantasy. Tax avoidance is something everyone with a 401k does and is encouraged by the tax code. If there's something unique about what they're doing, especially as a result of them lobbying for certain parts of the tax code, then I can see it being judged harshly. If anyone can do what they're doing, then I don't see it as particularly negative.

A 401k has the specific purpose of helping individuals fund their retirement years, something society has agreed is worth providing some benefit for. There is an element of intention to the exemption and it serves a specific purpose. > If anyone can do what they're doing, then I don't see it as particularly negative. Typically not just anyone can do this, smaller firms do not have the resources set-up these schemes.…

In the same way that a 401k is set up for a specific purpose, IKEA's foundation was also set up for a very specific purpose. If anything, the purpose was criticized as being overly narrow, and they recently updated it to be more broad.

Whether a firm can do something similar depends on the specifics. I'm not sure how large IKEA was when they set up their corporate structure in the early 80s, but I doubt they were as large as they are today.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201112042116if_/https://www.ec...

I'm not trying to equate personal and corporate taxation though. If IKEA wants to funnel a large portion of their profits into a foundation to control themselves rather than paying taxes to the government instead, I don't see how that is tax avoidance. Many other foundations around the world are set up so the controlling interests of companies can choose how to disperse money instead paying taxes and letting the government choose how to disperse it. Not that there's anything wrong with that either, but having a corporation designed to minimize taxes by funneling profits into a foundation doesn't scream tax avoidance to me.

With that said, there could be other aspects of their corporate structure that I'm not aware of, but like I said, if other companies can also implement the same structure, even if it's across national boundaries, I don't see it as being particularly unethical. Although if someone believed for instance that companies should always repatriate all profits, then I could see how they would think this is unethical, so as usual YMMV.

Edit - To put it another way, there don't seem to be laws restricting investment firms from buying controlling interests in companies to manipulate asset prices/consumer behavior, which to me is far more detrimental than someone who may be pathologically frugal deciding they want to minimize taxes by setting up a complicated corporate structure with a foundation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad#Personal_life

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