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IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

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Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#541

Post by ryandrake »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #406
Sodman wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, they are very specific, distinct things. Tax Evasion[0] is not paying taxes you legally owe. Tax Avoidance[1] is finding ways to owe less tax. Evasion is considered illegal, but Avoidance can practically be considered encouraged, as it's perfectly legal and rewards practitioners with lower tax bills. [0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxevasion.asp [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tax_avoida…

Most people reading this are probably aware of the distinction in technical, legal terms. But it doesn't matter, because we're not prosecutors or the IRS. But I still call it tax evasion colloquially, because I'm just an average Joe who can't prosecute anyone so my legal opinion doesn't matter. My judgement is not whether it's illegal, but whether it's immoral and scummy. My neighbor, a self-employed painter, claimin…

> But I still call it tax evasion colloquially, because I'm just an average Joe who can't prosecute anyone so my legal opinion doesn't matter. My judgement is not whether it's illegal, but whether it's immoral and scummy.

Do you contribute to a 401(k)? Deduct home mortgage interest from your taxes? If so, you've participated in legal tax avoidance, too! I don't think either of those are scummy.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#543

Post by Rumudiez »

candu wrote: post #303
nom wrote: post #256

I never understood why people hate IKEA. Yes it's cheap. Yes it doesn't last a lifetime. Yes it needs a lot of wood. Yes it's highly optimized. But guess what, IKEA is a business responding to the needs of people. The negatives that are mentioned frequently are merely a symptom of our ever faster developing society. The people who complain are the same ones that just buy cheap crap from china without even thinking ab…

Personally, I dislike IKEA for registering as a non-profit, when they're very clearly not. To me, this belongs in the same bucket as any number of tax avoidance schemes that ensure wealthy individuals pay far lower tax rates than the average person, and that large corporations pay effectively nothing. If they're able to provide great customer service - well, good on them, but I'd much rather the public purse have the…

If you respect freedom and tolerance of religion, I will hold you to respect my worship space in the IKEA showroom. Plywood is my god and IKEA is his messenger. For this reason, I think it's perfectly fair that IKEA gets the same treatment as any Church. If I ever open my own business, I will make sure to register is a non-profit religious organization as well. If you don't like the loophole, take it out of legislation -- everything here is above board, legally speaking.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#545

Post by nitrogen »

peter_d_sherman wrote: post #504
nom wrote: post #256

I never understood why people hate IKEA. Yes it's cheap. Yes it doesn't last a lifetime. Yes it needs a lot of wood. Yes it's highly optimized. But guess what, IKEA is a business responding to the needs of people. The negatives that are mentioned frequently are merely a symptom of our ever faster developing society. The people who complain are the same ones that just buy cheap crap from china without even thinking ab…

IKEA is to furniture -- what Walmart is to general consumer goods and groceries...

Walmart sells furniture, so Walmart is the Walmart of furniture.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#546

Post by jseliger »

dalbasal wrote: post #346
nom wrote: post #256

I never understood why people hate IKEA. Yes it's cheap. Yes it doesn't last a lifetime. Yes it needs a lot of wood. Yes it's highly optimized. But guess what, IKEA is a business responding to the needs of people. The negatives that are mentioned frequently are merely a symptom of our ever faster developing society. The people who complain are the same ones that just buy cheap crap from china without even thinking ab…

I think IKEA represents plastic consumerism to people. A lot of people feel alienated from the modern world and IKEA registers as fake and therefore alienating. Mass produced, cheap culture with a copy in every house. The best criticisms of these kinds of "problems" are in pop art, as opposed to rational discourse. Fight Club is the canonical example. The film picks IKEA to symbolize the enemy and justification for s…

Could be "plastic consumerism" but it could also be material freedom and mobility: https://jakeseliger.com/2015/03/10/does-ikea-enable-mobility...

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#547

Post by thimkerbell »

hiq wrote: post #307
nom wrote: post #256

I never understood why people hate IKEA. Yes it's cheap. Yes it doesn't last a lifetime. Yes it needs a lot of wood. Yes it's highly optimized. But guess what, IKEA is a business responding to the needs of people. The negatives that are mentioned frequently are merely a symptom of our ever faster developing society. The people who complain are the same ones that just buy cheap crap from china without even thinking ab…

> I never understood why people hate IKEA. Did you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA#Criticisms ? There seems to be many reasons to dislike the company, even as a happy customer. One thing that stuck with me is this: "The IKEA group has a complex corporate structure, which members of the European Parliament have alleged was designed to avoid over €1 billion in tax payments over the 2009–2014 period." It seems e…

No bicycle parking, at the store I visit.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#549

Post by SllX »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #406
Sodman wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, they are very specific, distinct things. Tax Evasion[0] is not paying taxes you legally owe. Tax Avoidance[1] is finding ways to owe less tax. Evasion is considered illegal, but Avoidance can practically be considered encouraged, as it's perfectly legal and rewards practitioners with lower tax bills. [0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxevasion.asp [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tax_avoida…

Most people reading this are probably aware of the distinction in technical, legal terms. But it doesn't matter, because we're not prosecutors or the IRS. But I still call it tax evasion colloquially, because I'm just an average Joe who can't prosecute anyone so my legal opinion doesn't matter. My judgement is not whether it's illegal, but whether it's immoral and scummy. My neighbor, a self-employed painter, claimin…

The merit in clarity and precision has less to do with your particular occupation or averageness and more to do with raising the floor for intelligent discussion upwards.

One of the things we debate as a society is taxes, because we live with them, pay them and discuss the services and salaries these taxes pay for. It is therefore incumbent upon participants to put their best foot forward in the larger discussion, and equating avoidance with evasion mimics vapid and hollow rhetoric. Else why bother to participate?

It is fair to criticize IKEA and you can certainly stake out a position as an adversary to their tax avoidance scheme without equating it with tax evasion out of a sort of intellectual laziness for one is within the realm of legislative discretion and the other within the real prosecutorial discretion and lead to two entirely different discussions.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#550

Post by Dylan16807 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #49
Dylan16807 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they weren't suggesting individual purchases. A very large group doing a very large purchase can buy cost-effective security.

> A very large group doing a very large purchase can buy cost-effective security. That really depends on how much they want the security. People defend territory all the time. It's very, very expensive to do that -- have a look at some city walls -- but it's cost-effective because they are using the territory. But no, no matter how large the group, they cannot buy cost-effective security for their giant stretch of wi…

> Compare American government efforts to stop people from using land to grow marijuana. Is the problem that the American government just isn't big enough?

People are generally doing that in areas where people are allowed. Also the government has a stupendously large amount of land that it didn't pay for and a low budget for keeping anyone out.

It's different if this is land you're purchasing in the modern age. If you're buying a million acres for over a hundred million dollars, then that's about 150 miles of border to patrol. If you hire 150 people for that, at above-median wages, that's 3 million a year. Add some overhead, some expense for equipment and buildings, it's affordable enough compared to the purchase price. If that's too expensive then go up to 10 million acres, which triples the land area per mile of border. Or 100 million acres.

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