Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 252 posts

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#31

Post by machiaweliczny »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #15
macspoofing wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's what OP is saying and if that's the case, they are wrong. Minimum wage is not inflationary. It has other problems like the fact it never ever decreases poverty, and has a good chance of increasing unemployment, and is a one-size-fits all ($15/hr in NY, is different than $15/hr in Alabama) ... but it isn't inflationary. You're not creating new money.

Agreed, the reason minimum wage is bad policy and unethical is that you're making it illegal to pay someone below a certain threshold, which stated differently is making it illegal for a sufficiently unskilled worker to get any job. But I don't see how minimum wage could be inflationary, but if it were it certainly wouldn't be enough to "wipe out savings" - that requires hyperinflation.

Im from EU and I think that minimum wage is basically negotiation with employer on your behalf. Obviously the lowest earning people don't have resources to negotiate salary well. IMO it's probably better to define it on more granular lvl that federal.

If someone earns less it should be considered gig not work and basically non even taxed.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#32

Post by nickpp »

newsclues wrote: post #21
macspoofing wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Even under communism when nobody really had money, my grandmother would diligently squirrely as much as she could. My dad did as well, in order to save up for his eventual emigration. There are ways to live below your means under even extreme situations.

Because food and shelter cost nearly 100% of people’s incomes. If the cost of living is equal or greater than your income, saving is impossible.

Both those variables (cost of living and income) are far from fixed. Cost of living can be reduced by removing unnecessary expenses or selecting cheaper options while income can be increased by working more or improving oneself.

But you need to want to have those savings. Most of the people I know living day to day spend beyond their means (like buying the BMW instead of the reliable Honda) or waste their time watching tv, drinking with friends or getting high.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#33

Post by RobertoG »

ihsw wrote: post #14
whateveracct wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, talks for a massive federal minimum wage increase means further sending people into poverty by destroying the value of what small savings anyone on the bottom might have. are you suggesting the newly-proposed $15 minimum wage will cause inflation so bad it will destroy people's savings?

There is only so much money for businesses to allocate towards labor, it is not infinite. Eg: $15K per month for staffing translates to $3750 per week, which translates to $125 per hour at 30 hours per week on average, which translates to ~10 staff at $12 per hour. At $15 per hour that is reduced to 8 staff. Alternatively the hours for 10 staff would be reduced from 30 hours per week to 24 hours per week. The money d…

I'm in awe that you managed to make your case, about this complex subject, without mentioning business profit anywhere.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#34

Post by WC3w6pXxgGd »

bwestergard wrote: post #25
exabrial wrote: post #3

This and a spiraling mental health crisis are predictable outcomes from poor public health policies executed during the pandemic. For unskilled labor jobs like the service industry, lockdowns are devastating which has fueled the inequality fire in 2020. Now, talks for a massive federal minimum wage increase means further sending people into poverty by destroying the value of what small savings anyone on the bottom mi…

"talks for a massive federal minimum wage increase means further sending people into poverty by destroying the value of what small savings anyone on the bottom might have." This statement is only true, and then only formally, if you limit yourself to considering first order effects. The distributive effects of minimum wage policies will alter final consumer demand, which will have an impact on capital structure and d…

Actual Econ 101 would be understanding how setting a price floor on peoples' ability to sell their labor (aka a "minimum wage") is destructive and immoral.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#35

Post by nickpp »

war1025 wrote: post #17
api wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very very few Americans do this. They should, but they don't. Everything in the culture encourages people to spend.

Further, if you tell them it's possible they will attack you for suggesting such a thing could even be possible.

Especially if you point out to them that they are carelessly wasting the one resource they have that is more valuable than money: time.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#36

Post by jayd16 »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #15
macspoofing wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's what OP is saying and if that's the case, they are wrong. Minimum wage is not inflationary. It has other problems like the fact it never ever decreases poverty, and has a good chance of increasing unemployment, and is a one-size-fits all ($15/hr in NY, is different than $15/hr in Alabama) ... but it isn't inflationary. You're not creating new money.

Agreed, the reason minimum wage is bad policy and unethical is that you're making it illegal to pay someone below a certain threshold, which stated differently is making it illegal for a sufficiently unskilled worker to get any job. But I don't see how minimum wage could be inflationary, but if it were it certainly wouldn't be enough to "wipe out savings" - that requires hyperinflation.

>you're making it illegal to pay someone below a certain threshold, which stated differently is making it illegal for a sufficiently unskilled worker to get any job.

B does not follow from A if demand is elastic. Minimum wage proponents assume enough labor demand is elastic.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#37

Post by [deleted] »

pradn wrote: post #26

The poverty rate is an awful metric. It simply counts the number of people who earn below a certain income. So people dipping $1 below the line are counted the same as those dipping $10,000 below the line. So, poverty-rate alleviation measures can be implemented simply by focusing on the top end of those under the limit - of course, this doesn't help much. What we should really worry about is the poverty gap - the am…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#38

Post by alexpetralia »

commandlinefan wrote: post #24
37ef_ced3 wrote: post #20

Let them eat stonks (Downvotes? "Let them eat cake" is the traditional translation of the French phrase "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche", spoken in the 17th or 18th century by "a great princess" upon learning that the peasants had no bread.)

Did you mean "stocks"?

No, "stonks" is a meme joke currently going around. Elon Musk has said it multiple times.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#39

Post by machiaweliczny »

evan_ wrote: post #5
exabrial wrote: post #3

This and a spiraling mental health crisis are predictable outcomes from poor public health policies executed during the pandemic. For unskilled labor jobs like the service industry, lockdowns are devastating which has fueled the inequality fire in 2020. Now, talks for a massive federal minimum wage increase means further sending people into poverty by destroying the value of what small savings anyone on the bottom mi…

people living in poverty don’t have “savings”

Agree. What they gain in salary will offset that for sure. It will affect just people who currently earn those $15 as they will need to renegotiate due to small increases in prices and also they relative productivity.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#40

Post by newacct583 »

pradn wrote: post #26

The poverty rate is an awful metric. It simply counts the number of people who earn below a certain income. So people dipping $1 below the line are counted the same as those dipping $10,000 below the line. So, poverty-rate alleviation measures can be implemented simply by focusing on the top end of those under the limit - of course, this doesn't help much. What we should really worry about is the poverty gap - the am…

> What we should really worry about is the poverty gap - the amount of income people need to get people above the poverty line.

Is that not showing an increase right now too? I mean, I don't disagree that serious analysis needs more info than a single number. But... what's the policy distinction here that you're trying to argue?

There's no mystery to the current situation: people are out of work due to the pandemic and making a lot less money, and that's bad.

Edit: two replies have responded by repeating the theoretical distinction and proposing scenarios where the two metrics would diverge. I understand that part. I'm asking if there is any evidence RIGHT NOW that this is the wrong metric to look at. Because naively, you'd really expect that people losing a lot of jobs to covid would simultaneously increase the population of people below the poverty line AND the average/median incomes of those people already below it. And if that's true, and it seems to be, why are we arguing about minutiae about metrics? The cause, and the solution, is the same in either case.

Post reply on HN