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IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

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Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#51

Post by ClumsyPilot »

namdnay wrote: post #25
piokoch wrote: post #14

This smells like some really bold and really ridiculous PR attempt. "Ikea uses about one percent—yes, one percent—of the world's entire commercial wood supply. That amounts to about 17.8 million cubic yards of lumber last year. " [1] I guess they need this PR purchase to appease some eko organization. And this is equally ridiculous. Ikea is making furniture, something people really need. Why they have to explain them…

I guess the argument would go that we would be better off building small quantities of long-lasting re-usable furniture, rather than building and throwing away lots of new cheaper furniture The low prices at Ikea and others definitely encourage over-consumption - buying a new table instead of restoring an old one for example Personally I don't necessarily subscribe to this argument, I think that we can focus on bigge…

Buying new stuff in the west is now cheaper than repairing old items - this is a combination of outsourcing production, loosing skills, and deliberate efforts by compabies like Apple and Sonor to make their equipment unrepairable.

https://youtu.be/Npd_xDuNi9k

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#52

Post by Varriount »

fimdomeio wrote: post #13

I have a problem with IKEA. Aren't those peaces of furniture made of composite materials and those not so sturdy shelves a sustainability problem when compared to traditional furniture making which is mostly wood glue a protective coat which lasts for hundreds of years can be infinitely repaired in a workshop with some basic tools. And then it it all ends it can became firewood, which ikea furniture can't. Shouldn't…

I would say most pieces of furniture sold these days are made of engineered wood [0], if that's what you mean by "composite materials". Aside from easier sourcing, I presume that a big driver of it's use is the fact that it is easier to shape and produce - no having to figure out how it will be assembled using the various sizes of timber available.

The actual solid-wood furniture I have seen is either quite expensive, or (somewhat ironically) unfinished.

All this being said, if you do have the money to spare, spending a bit on quality or better labor practices is good. For example, I bought my bed frame from a company in the UK[1], and was quite happy with the finished product (despite some unfortunate luck with a part of the frame, which I put down to the fact that I ordered during the holidays).

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_wood [1] https://www.getlaidbeds.com/

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#53

Post by DoingIsLearning »

andy_ppp wrote: post #5

How much would buying all the Brazilian rain forest cost the world, or even renting it from Brazil? We would need it to be slightly more than cattle farming to work... but I’d happily pay towards this.

Buying rain forest would mean nothing for illegal rare wood markets, or illegal gold mining, or illegal forest fires to stretch cattle grazing area.

Most people grossly underestimate how wild and pretty much lawless inland rain-forest regions are in the Brazilian state of Amazonas. There are small pockets of settlements everywhere but except for Manaus there is very sparse infrastructure, Police will take days to get somewhere by boat, Healthcare deep in the forest is pretty much a death sentence if you happen to need urgent critical care. You have people that have never been registered with social security, etc.

My point is that having a piece of paper saying that a specific rosewood tree belongs to IKEA or would mean nothing, by the time you try to enforce this, the tree would have been fellen, cut, and shipped on a boat to the highest bidder.

If you want actual change in the region you need to develop the local economy with jobs that allow these people to be productive in a way that is somehow more profitable than the existing illegal activities. But the practicalities of this are much harder to implement then simply blank buying forest land.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#54

Post by thaumasiotes »

Snoddas wrote: post #41
thaumasiotes wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an article commenting on "microlending", which came to the conclusion that the concept doesn't really work. Your loan of $3.50 might really mean something to the peasant who receives it. But it means nothing to you, and so microloans end up with no one vetting the borrower for creditworthiness or hassling them to collect. This incentive mismatch ends up spoiling the project; there's no reason for someone not t…

I have about usd 100 rotating in different micro loans through https://www.kiva.org/ In 11 years only one loan has defaulted.

How many loans is that? I take it when one comes back you just make another loan?

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#55

Post by jacquesm »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #29
loceng wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because they're fighting the arguably true reality that the majority of their furniture is designed to be disposable, and consumers are generally fine with that. I'd like to be wrong, though until we require companies to be responsible for all costs associated with the full lifecycle of a product so externalized costs are incorporated, we're not going to develop the most sustainable practices.

I think this is not as easy a calculus as one might imagine. Heirloom furniture is in some ways less sustainable than Ikea products. I am not sure there would be enough sustainable hardwood in the world to meet demand at the scale of Ikea. People have different furniture needs than they did decades ago, and in terms of weight, logistics, material use, Ikea are quite efficient.

The biggest problem is that furniture, instead of a class of objects with longevity and functionality has now become a fashion article, and IKEA is a large factor in that shift.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#56

Post by oblio »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #40
piokoch wrote: post #14

This smells like some really bold and really ridiculous PR attempt. "Ikea uses about one percent—yes, one percent—of the world's entire commercial wood supply. That amounts to about 17.8 million cubic yards of lumber last year. " [1] I guess they need this PR purchase to appease some eko organization. And this is equally ridiculous. Ikea is making furniture, something people really need. Why they have to explain them…

There are some serious allegations that Ikea sources illegally harvested wood and convinces regulatora to look the other way https://fsc-watch.com/2020/07/02/ikeas-ukrainian-illegal-tim...

He he: http://skyddaskogen.se/en/news/4852-ikea-s-forest-in-romania...

They've had these issues for at least 5 years, I remember reading about it back in 2015.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#57

Post by ClumsyPilot »

johnnycerberus wrote: post #42

Not implying that this is corporate propaganda to cater to the US public, but something similar happened to my country where saving the planet is not on the agenda of its citizens since there are other problems that need to be solved first. [1] "IKEA’s goal is to purchase wood which is 100 per cent FSC-certified from these countries. At the same time there are many indications that forests with high conservation valu…

"countries with corrupt officials will eventually end up in prison"

Majority never will, see Navalni exposing theft after theft and ending up in jail himself.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#58

Post by jacquesm »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #39
piokoch wrote: post #14

This smells like some really bold and really ridiculous PR attempt. "Ikea uses about one percent—yes, one percent—of the world's entire commercial wood supply. That amounts to about 17.8 million cubic yards of lumber last year. " [1] I guess they need this PR purchase to appease some eko organization. And this is equally ridiculous. Ikea is making furniture, something people really need. Why they have to explain them…

> This smells like some really bold and really ridiculous PR attempt. Of course it is, they just use illegal loggers in Romania to offset their actual need for the crappy disposable stuff they produce. They seem to get away with that no problem, despite EU restrictions on it. I've never seen the appeal of IKEA when it came to furniture, the long lines at some of the bigger ones I've been to (for breakfast) are baffli…

IKEA is just as dutch as the Rolling Stones.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#59

Post by oblio »

namdnay wrote: post #25
piokoch wrote: post #14

This smells like some really bold and really ridiculous PR attempt. "Ikea uses about one percent—yes, one percent—of the world's entire commercial wood supply. That amounts to about 17.8 million cubic yards of lumber last year. " [1] I guess they need this PR purchase to appease some eko organization. And this is equally ridiculous. Ikea is making furniture, something people really need. Why they have to explain them…

I guess the argument would go that we would be better off building small quantities of long-lasting re-usable furniture, rather than building and throwing away lots of new cheaper furniture The low prices at Ikea and others definitely encourage over-consumption - buying a new table instead of restoring an old one for example Personally I don't necessarily subscribe to this argument, I think that we can focus on bigge…

> The low prices at Ikea and others definitely encourage over-consumption - buying a new table instead of restoring an old one for example

This is never going to fly with regular folks, though. We could probably reduce pollution a ton if people started patching their clothes, but that's never going to happen either.

Re: IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from being developed

#60

Post by johnnycerberus »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #57
johnnycerberus wrote: post #42

Not implying that this is corporate propaganda to cater to the US public, but something similar happened to my country where saving the planet is not on the agenda of its citizens since there are other problems that need to be solved first. [1] "IKEA’s goal is to purchase wood which is 100 per cent FSC-certified from these countries. At the same time there are many indications that forests with high conservation valu…

"countries with corrupt officials will eventually end up in prison" Majority never will, see Navalni exposing theft after theft and ending up in jail himself.

That is indeed a very sad reality in this part of the world. Since the fight against corruption that started with Romania's integration into the EU, things are a little bit better. Politicans are now held accountable but too late. We are mostly reactive instead of preventive.
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