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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#691

Post by sidlls »

etchalon wrote: post #658
sidlls wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now if only all the other electronic voting machine companies would be similarly destroyed. There's no good reason to not have publicly counted paper ballots. Other developed countries don't seem to have problems running their elections that way.

Many of the machines, if not most, had paper ballot backups in addition to the electronic counts. When audited, the paper counts matched the machine counts. So the issue isn't "electronic voting" vs. "paper ballots".

No, that's pretty much the issue. Voting isn't a technology problem; it's a funding and people problem like most political issues. Other countries--large, developed countries--don't take days to hand-count paper ballots, and the tallies don't need people blathering about audits and statistics for voters to have confidence in them.

The fact that it takes as long as it does in the US and there is still a fear that it's not secure or that it's suspicious--no matter how wrong that fear may be--is a problem. And it's not a "dumb normies need more education about statistics" problem. It's a problem created by forcing a "solution" that is unnecessary (paper ballots, counted by hand work fine) and unnecessarily complicated.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#692

Post by ineedasername »

qwerty12345678 wrote: post #686
ineedasername wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't come down to Hitchen's razor, or any other etiquette of debate or rhetoric. It is simple innocence until proven guilty. Asserting fraud is making an accusation that crimes occurred, and the burden of proof is not on the accused. The idea that the proof is too well hidden is itself un-falsifiable, as any amount of effort to find proof, if it doesn't exist, can simply be dismissed as "well it's just too we…

"Innocence until proven guilty" is relating to an individual being formally accused of a crime in a court of law. We are talking about a PUBLIC PROCESS, which in my opinion doesn't fall into the same category. The burden of proof shouldn't fall on either side, it should be publicly verifiable . If a third-world country controlled by rebels ran a "free and fair" election, where they "counted" the presidential ballots…

It's trivial to find analysis of the flaws in the Antrim report you linked.

We have also already had a public process. President Trump exercised all avenues to prove himself the winner, deprived via fraud. They went through public courts and public scrutiny. His own prior commission on voter fraud disbanded without significant findings of similar levels of fraud he alleged occured during 2016.

What public process would you propose when private investigators, the courts, and an administration eager to prove its claims of fraud did not find anything worthwhile? When the head of the department of justice and a strong Trump supporter said claims of fraud on any relevant scale were BS?

At some point the demand for a "public process" begins looking like paranoia, when every failure to find anything significant is used to bolster the claim "that just means it's really well hidden".

When you're using the lack of evidence as justification for your claim, no public process will ever satisfy you if it doesn't confirm your assumption.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#694

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

newacct583 wrote: post #518
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see these so called patriots champion installing Gore for a bonus term since he was actually shafted by a mismanaged election. Nobody went looney bin insane over that.

To be fair: plenty of people went a little bit insane in 2000. But the elected leaders of both parties behaved like the adults in the room and the democracy survived just fine. For two more decades, anyway. Honestly the jury is still out on where we go from here.

Did 2000 insanity have anything on 2020? IDK, tough call.

Agreed on adults that somehow are now missing or more concerned with their Twitter feeds than their responsibilities.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#695

Post by rayiner »

RHSeeger wrote: post #560
qwerty12345678 wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious Question: Why is everyone assuming they're lying? And why doesn't anyone want to prove Biden won? From my perspective, the accusations he made were completely dodged by Dominion and by Democrats (since their guy was labeled the winner by the media). I'm not aware of any individual claim that was debunked via substantiating evidence. They refused to answer, refused to report it in the media, and ran full speed…

As a general rule of thumb, if you make an extraordinary claim, the burden lies on your to provide proof if you want to be believed. Claiming that there was widespread election fraud, including by the companies making some of the devices, is an extraordinary claim. It doesn't appear there's been any proof provided to back up those extraordinary claims. As such, they can, and should, be ignored.

Can we apply this standard to all propaganda intended to delegitimize elections? E.g. claims that Voter ID laws reduce turnout. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/21/18230009/v...

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#696

Post by gwicks56 »

throwaway32871 wrote: post #683
blacksqr wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Former election security chief for Trump knocks down Antrim County report" https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/12/... From the article: "The former acting director of the EAC’s Voting System Testing and Certification Program, Ryan Macias, said the report showed “a grave misunderstanding” of the voting system used in Antrim County as well as “a lack of knowledge of election technology and process…

Let me summarize the article and see if I can make a conclusion: - Former Trump official (irrelevant) - Could not find anything in the article to support corruption. I agree with this, since charging corruption is very strong. - 68% error rates are not really errors. OK - Does not look like anyone actually went in there and set a zero. The specific picture is blacked out, so I cannot tell what was happening (I seem t…

Well the Democrats agree, which is why they have repeatedly put bills up to secure elections better[1], Republicans have repeatedly stalled those bills, so I guess you can infer from that what you will.

[1] https://thehill.com/homenews/house/482569-senate-gop-blocks-...

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#697

Post by TheDong »

ekianjo wrote: post #679
ahupp wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source doesn't really help here, because even if I can see the source I don't have a way to verify what was running. It's more important to just not rely on software for the critical path, and make sure there's an auditable paper trail.

What if you used the combination of FOSS and a blockchain ledger?

Say more about how a blockchain ledger could allow verifying what software is running on a device?

The only way I can think of to actually do this is to have some trusted party go out and randomly sample voting machines (i.e. check the software on the disk matches the reproducible builds of the open source software, and decap the machine's CPU and other hardware to verify there's no bugs).

Anything else can be foiled by malicious software or hardware.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#698

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

vaidhy wrote: post #614
briandear wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim is that voter laws were changed by Secretaries of State rather than the legislatures as is required by the constitution. Secretaries of State changing voter laws is unconstitutional. Read the constitution. It’s crystal clear. That happened. It’s a fact.

Sorry.. Legislatures has the power to delegate that work and has been delegated to the Secretaries of State. It has been called out in multiple court rulings.

That was actually brought up in Bush v Gore in 2000.

It was scotus decided that yes, legislatures can delegate powers, but no matter what they do; the legislature can never lose this power as it is specifically enumerated in Article 2.

This became moot in 2000 as the recount ended discussion.

Of the states in question, I do not believe GA, MI, or AZ legislatures delegated powers to the Gov or AGs, but I could be mistaken on that.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#699

Post by Bjartr »

Akronymus wrote: post #606
CydeWeys wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good thing not doing it. ID verification disenfranchises way more people than fraudulent votes prevented.

I thought that ID was already basically required to be able to live a acceptable life in the US.

That isn't mutually exclusive with the idea a non-trivial number of people lack them.
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