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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that’s the issue with the video, then why does everyone’s main concern about it seem to be that they came from a box under a table? There’s certainly an implication that these were fake ballots that had been snuck in surreptitiously, given that its origin was clearly shown in the same video but had been cut out. Maybe I’m reading too much into it. But then why is it called “SuitcaseGate”? Does “StandardContainerOf…

Okay, so they weren't permitted in until counting had been completed. They were told to leave because counting was complete, then when they came back (due to a tip, not an invitation) they were delayed at the door until all activities they wished to observe had ceased. This isn't getting any better! Your whole argument boils down to "there's no need for observers because I trust the process". The whole point of obser…

> Okay, so they weren't permitted in until counting had been completed.

When they arrived at the front door they were told counting had already been completed. Not sure whether you misread that or are suggesting the security person was lying about what was happening inside.

> They were told to leave because counting was complete,

They were told counting was complete, they were not told to leave, and they do not claim they were told to leave. But I can't blame them for making that assumption.

> then when they came back (due to a tip, not an invitation)

Agree with you here, when the secretary of state's office called and told them to resume counting, some effort should have been made to get the observers back in.

But the only work done was scanning of ballots that had already been cleared, and it was all on camera, and all of the work they did while unobserved can be directly confirmed by recounts. So even though this happened, I don't see how it's evidence that the election was rigged.

> they were delayed at the door until all activities they wished to observe had ceased.

Having arrived at the front door after counting was finished, the one guard at the door stayed at the door instead of leaving his post, and he radioed someone else. The second person escorted them in, where they confirmed that yes, counting had ceased as they were told.

Is there a couple minute window in there where you could say "the second person took too long and was stalling to cover something?" Sure, allow me to flex my creative writing muscles to concoct a reverse-heist in which this could actually matter and have affected the election:

1) The (democratic leaning) Fulton County election officials shut down counting for the night and allowed observers to leave.

2) Observers having been cleared, they colluded with the (republican) secretary of state's office to arrange a cover to resume scanning ballots.

3) They then used the unobserved counting session as an excuse to unseal the boxes under the table of verified but uncounted ballots.

4) Having these containers of ballots open, they hacked the security cameras to cover their activities.

5) The footage we've seen was actually recorded in a replica of the ballot counting room that they built in a warehouse last October, and the people seen counting ballots on it are all actors.

6) With the cameras hijacked and no observers present, they introduce and count fake ballots that did not actually come from the previously observed and sealed boxes.

7) Steal election!

I don't have the full quality video recording or the forensic knowledge to analyze it, but as conspiracy theories go I don't find my scenario particularly compelling.

> This isn't getting any better!

If you say so.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there is a sense in which dismissal for “failure to state a claim” (which is very common for the Trump cases, often alongside other grounds like laches and/or lack of standing) is “procedural”, but it definitely and unequivocally amounts to a finding on the merits, since it is literally “does the plaintiff allege the actual elements of an offense, with specific alleged factual bases, and profer evidence which w…

There was a bit of a catch-22 in many of these. There was statistical and/or witness evidence that looking more closely at dominion machines and/or ballots was warranted. However, the only way to actually be allowed to look was during discovery ... which required a suit to actually be heard rather than dismissed. So you don't get to go looking for evidence because you are told you don't have any evidence. I remember…

> There was a bit of a catch-22 in many of these

Please cite a specific case which made claims that were not properly adjudicated on the basis of this supposed “catch-22”.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but "they should have known" doesn't follow from how they market themselves as a business unless it's a licensed profession. It's not uncommon for defendants to completely contradict their previous public statements under threat of a lawsuit like all the Fox News lawsuits where their lawyers win by claiming that it's an entertainment channel and their viewers should know better [1]. Beyond that, one can easily…

You are kidding me, their defence in court is that they are bullshit artists, it’s just beyond parody. I’m starting to think we live in something far worse than idiocracy... Dominion at the very least should be demanding they remove the word “news” from all their branding if this is to fly.

Nope. It’s very clear to even people who like that shit that Tucker isn’t “the news”. It’s very clearly overblown rants about anything that went on recently. It’s clearly a talk show on a channel that has news during the day. Hannity is even more of a nutter bringing in panels to get peoples’ reactions to shit that went on.

It’s the equivalent of /r/politics for boomers. A bunch of people getting riled up together about the “obvious stupidity” of “the other side”.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there is a sense in which dismissal for “failure to state a claim” (which is very common for the Trump cases, often alongside other grounds like laches and/or lack of standing) is “procedural”, but it definitely and unequivocally amounts to a finding on the merits, since it is literally “does the plaintiff allege the actual elements of an offense, with specific alleged factual bases, and profer evidence which w…

There was a bit of a catch-22 in many of these. There was statistical and/or witness evidence that looking more closely at dominion machines and/or ballots was warranted. However, the only way to actually be allowed to look was during discovery ... which required a suit to actually be heard rather than dismissed. So you don't get to go looking for evidence because you are told you don't have any evidence. I remember…

Stating that you expect to find something specific during discovery is sufficient for the purpose of stating a claim. The issue for most of the cases is that the Trump campaign lawyers were very careful not to include in their claims that they believed that fraud had occurred, because they did not actually believe this, and lying in a court filing is a serious crime. Asking for a trial so that you can avail yourself of discovery but not actually claiming any illegal things you expect discovery to uncover is commonly referred to as a "fishing expedition", and is never permitted.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a general rule of thumb, if you make an extraordinary claim, the burden lies on your to provide proof if you want to be believed. Claiming that there was widespread election fraud, including by the companies making some of the devices, is an extraordinary claim. It doesn't appear there's been any proof provided to back up those extraordinary claims. As such, they can, and should, be ignored.

You're referring to Hitchens's Razor, which I believe is a flawed mindset that's used selectively as it suits people. The situation here is that the proof is very well hidden, and therefore the situation has been rendered un-falsifiable. This is now essentially a Russell's Teapot[1] statement. I'd say when people start storming the US Capitol, it's time to stop ignoring the underlying issue. Why are you so afraid of…

Because these claims were brought to court and dismissed without evidence. Quit concern trolling you know they were bullshitting and so does every other person with even the slightest technical background.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#597
post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Republicans have been claiming for years, completely without merit, that Dominion has been involved in a variety of vote-changing schemes Just Republicans? https://thefederalist.com/2016/10/19/8-times-liberals-claime...

Which of the examples in your list alleges that "Dominion has been involved in a [...] vote-changing scheme"?

Not sure. Here's a democrat that wanted to look at the source code for the Election Systems & Software. Inc. machines. https://www.heraldtribune.com/article/LK/20061229/News/60524...

Your question implies that you feel that Dominion is somehow different from other companies doubted by democrats, and itself must never be doubted. Why is it different?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#598
post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that it's not totally clear whether Giuliani believed any of his crazy-talk. It may actually be the case that Giuliani is just off his rocker. If he himself was sold by the (false) facts he received from others, he is a more difficult defamation target. That part seems bizarre. Surely he ought to still be culpable is he said false things with the intention to damage Dominion, even if he can convince…

This is such an interesting point that it really throws the era of 'fake news' a judicial curveball. The same question came up with Trump's phone calls to the Georgia AG when the President was essentially threatening the AG to 'do something'. There is apparently a lot of materiality to the notion of how much the President actually believed the issue of fraud. Which is an altogether amazing new line of defence: "If yo…

I didn’t know it was a crime isn’t a proper legal defense

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#599
post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The complaint by Dominion very thoroughly refutes all the accusations here, and shows convincingly that they knew they were lying. It's 107 pages and has a total of 235 footnotes: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/20463212/rudy.pdf

IANAL, but that complaint reads weirdly. Most often these things are deadly dull and the facts are slowly laid out with evidence in the footnotes but that filing doesn’t play to type. I make no claim if that is right or wrong, just oddly spicy.

I have read too many court documents over the last 10 years and I agree. Generally, you want to start out with your strongest statement.

In this case, the strong argument is very easily legally defensible. It was very clear in context why Rudy was not pleading fraud because it wasn't the point he was making at that time. That's the strongest argument?

So I wonder what exactly is the point of this lawsuit? I'm going to guess given:

  * 1.3 billion
  * Spicy, as you said
This is designed for news.

When Rudy asks for discovery, it will either be provided or not. I suspect Dominion does not want to take it that far because any good lawyer can make a case for whatever they want given what discovery they get. The fact of the matter is that a Dominion(? not sure if actually Dominion) machine in Michigan was found (in court) to basically make up numbers, had logs erased for 2020 but not 2016 and a whole whack of stuff that was suspect.

A good lawyer should be able to make a case that it is reasonable to assume the machines were defective if not outright fraudulent in that case.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a general rule of thumb, if you make an extraordinary claim, the burden lies on your to provide proof if you want to be believed. Claiming that there was widespread election fraud, including by the companies making some of the devices, is an extraordinary claim. It doesn't appear there's been any proof provided to back up those extraordinary claims. As such, they can, and should, be ignored.

You're referring to Hitchens's Razor, which I believe is a flawed mindset that's used selectively as it suits people. The situation here is that the proof is very well hidden, and therefore the situation has been rendered un-falsifiable. This is now essentially a Russell's Teapot[1] statement. I'd say when people start storming the US Capitol, it's time to stop ignoring the underlying issue. Why are you so afraid of…

Isn't it your claim that proof is well-hidden and hence any argument to the contrary will just trigger the same defence that it is even more well-hidden? Which means, you are making an un-falsifiable statement and the burden of proof is on you.

As another person replied, the evidence for "voter liberation" has been evaluated in the court and found lacking.

PS: Which is another sad thing.. that the claims are fraud are really that they allowed more legal voters to vote. Such a pitiful state of democracy.

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