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The high price of mistrust

fs.blog

221–230 of 285 posts

Re: The high price of mistrust

#221
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trust, morality and legality are not the same thing. Sure, Uber was operating illegally in many places, but millions of people used these illegal services and saw nothing wrong with it. They didn’t see using an unlicensed cab company as anything bad. People baited into purchasing new cars and screwed over car insurance sure did. But more importantly, everyone saw that the legal system in cities around the world isn…

> But more importantly, everyone saw that the legal system in cities around the world isn't powerful enough to deal with direct offense. We saw you can build a multi-billion dollar megacorp not on just regulatory arbitrage, but plainly illegal business - and nobody got hold accountable (except for an off driver caught without proper insurance). All of this fundamentally erodes the trust in the rule of law - the trust…

> What actually happened was instead the government in most places have figured that the customers liked the illegal service so much, that if they do fight it, they will actually reduce, instead of increasing their legitimacy.

I don't think it's that, unless you think the dissatisfaction expressed by officials is just posturing. I believe that it's just because bureaucracy moves slowly - and the core of Uber's strategy was to corner the market and gain sympathy of the riders before local regulators could gear up - at which point they'd be fighting their own citizen. Basically, pitting people against their local governments.

> Imagine the government tomorrow decides to ban shaking hands. Would prosecuting the hand-shakers increase the trust in government and its legitimacy? No: people would rightly conclude that it's the government that's wrong, and it doesn't deserve trust or charity here.

I get your example and it's a fair point - but I must say we generally did just that in 2020 with COVID restrictions :). That itself initially impacted the trust positively, but I guess it's easier to imagine the threat of a pandemic than a threat of an underpaid and uninsured driver operating an illegal cab having an accident.

> In every city I am aware off, on both sides of the pond, traditional taxis have not been able to compete very well with Uber. Sure, in some places the taxis were less bad than in others, but almost everywhere they were overpriced and untrustworthy.

I'm not saying they weren't in need of some competitive pressure, but generally, taxis weren't able to compete very well with Uber because it's really hard to compete with an international corporation that just ignores the law, while subsidizing its offerings from practically infinite VC budget. Whether the existing taxi services in any given city were good or bad or in between, it didn't matter - they didn't stand a chance.

> Have you tried paying with card in a taxi in Poland before Uber came up? Somehow, despite MasterCard sticker on the window, the payment terminal always happened to be broken... Also, try taking a non-Uber cab from the airport in Warsaw or Krakow.

I am from Kraków, I was born there, and I moved out only ~3 years ago. I've been riding taxis ever since childhood. From my perspective, network taxis weren't all that bad (it was common knowledge you don't use the "entrepreneurs" that park outside airports and railway stations, you probably even remember a TV show that revealed how they scam you if they think you're a tourist). Uber itself didn't introduce anything substantial over what iCar did a decade before. And while iCar was also playing a bit loose with the regulations, and there were some conflict with the local taxi networks (I recall articles about some tire slashing), they've ultimately managed to settle it through courts and iCar could deliver its value proposition completely legally. Uber didn't even bother.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#222

I appreciate the author's framing of "transaction costs." These costs are often hidden. It seems that as systems scale (in size) they tend to become inherently lower-trust. Consider a physician who makes house calls (not uncommon as recently as a few generations ago, and certainly not incompatible with modern medicine) and a large medical system such as Kaiser Permanente or NHS. The economic benefits of the larger-sc…

One thing I took away from the beginning of Matt Ridley's book Rational Optimism is that with trust, commerce is unlimited.

And here we are stuck in this world where the computer in your pocket is untrustworthy, and you can't tell a useful benign app from an app trying to upload your life.

and it's a shame.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#223
post #222

I appreciate the author's framing of "transaction costs." These costs are often hidden. It seems that as systems scale (in size) they tend to become inherently lower-trust. Consider a physician who makes house calls (not uncommon as recently as a few generations ago, and certainly not incompatible with modern medicine) and a large medical system such as Kaiser Permanente or NHS. The economic benefits of the larger-sc…

One thing I took away from the beginning of Matt Ridley's book Rational Optimism is that with trust, commerce is unlimited. And here we are stuck in this world where the computer in your pocket is untrustworthy, and you can't tell a useful benign app from an app trying to upload your life. and it's a shame.

[deleted]

Re: The high price of mistrust

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a description of the absolute opposite of what “meritocratic” means. Well, its actually exactly what the use that brought “meritocracy” into the common lexicon was referring to, though that use was satirical.

No, "meritocracy" was brought into the common lexicon in the 1960s, specifically as an alternative to existing forms of social structure. A system where it did not matter which school you went to, in particular. I do not read the GP as being satirical in their use, although the use of quotes makes it somewhat unclear.

Well, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy absolutely is satire (or rather, satire used to serious effect). But it's true that this was very quickly forgotten.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#225
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But more importantly, everyone saw that the legal system in cities around the world isn't powerful enough to deal with direct offense. We saw you can build a multi-billion dollar megacorp not on just regulatory arbitrage, but plainly illegal business - and nobody got hold accountable (except for an off driver caught without proper insurance). All of this fundamentally erodes the trust in the rule of law - the trust…

> What actually happened was instead the government in most places have figured that the customers liked the illegal service so much, that if they do fight it, they will actually reduce, instead of increasing their legitimacy. I don't think it's that, unless you think the dissatisfaction expressed by officials is just posturing. I believe that it's just because bureaucracy moves slowly - and the core of Uber's strate…

> I don't think it's that, unless you think the dissatisfaction expressed by officials is just posturing. I believe that it's just because bureaucracy moves slowly - and the core of Uber's strategy was to corner the market and gain sympathy of the riders before local regulators could gear up - at which point they'd be fighting their own citizen. Basically, pitting people against their local governments.

And what's the problem with that? The government is meant to serve people, not to rule over them. If the governments can't push their power, because the people will hate it and won't allow it, that's good: that's why we have representative democracy in the first place. If one can improve the lives of the people and make them happier by subverting the law, this is really damning for the government.

> That itself initially impacted the trust positively

Yes, and then people saw the government restrictions mostly for what they were: a safety theater.

> but I guess it's easier to imagine the threat of a pandemic than a threat of an underpaid and uninsured driver operating an illegal cab having an accident.

I don't think that risk of car accident is something so completely foreign that people entering a cab don't know what they are getting into. More importantly, even if you grant the government the authority to take away people's freedom to do things the government considers too risky, purely out of paternalism, the fact is that the government had no reason whatsoever to believe that Uber cabs are less safe: if you want to argue that the government is better informed about the risks of riding a regular cab vs. Uber than a regular person, it had better actually be better informed.

> I'm not saying they weren't in need of some competitive pressure, but generally, taxis weren't able to compete very well with Uber because it's really hard to compete with an international corporation that just ignores the law,

If the law is so onerous, and Uber violating it results in its repeal (or at least ceasing enforcement), then instead of complaining, the taxi companies should rejoice, and thank Uber for the great service it provided.

This is of course ridiculous, because the reason traditional taxi companies are unhappy about Uber breaking the laws precisely because the laws help protect their business and extract rent at the expense of the consumers. Fighting against rent-seekers is a good thing, and rent-seeking is another reason why not all laws governments pass are good, and why it's not always morally wrong to violate them.

> while subsidizing its offerings from practically infinite VC budget. Whether the existing taxi services in any given city were good or bad or in between, it didn't matter - they didn't stand a chance.

Weren't you just a moment ago saying that the drivers were "underpaid"? If it ain't the drivers who are subsidized, then who is, exactly?

> From my perspective, network taxis weren't all that bad (it was common knowledge you don't use the "entrepreneurs" that park outside airports and railway stations, you probably even remember a TV show that revealed how they scam you if they think you're a tourist).

They were expensive, they didn't always arrive when called, you had to always be on the lookout to not be scammed, the vehicles were old, often dirty, the drivers were rude, the payment was cash only, and many more. I remember that, and Uber was improvement on every single metric. Cabs are much better now, precisely because Uber forces them to behave better or die.

> Uber itself didn't introduce anything substantial over what iCar did a decade before.

If so, how did Uber gain any foothold at all? If it's all VC subsidies, they'll run out, and in the meantime, the customers keep benefitting from subsidized rides.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many, many journalists who work on stories that do not have "hour from now" deadlines. People reporting on, for example: the move towards renewable energy supplies, the redistricting/closure of Chicago public schools over the last decade, gerrymandering processes in a half-dozen states ... in fact, I'd wager than the majority of things that journalists write about are not "hot news" at all. You cannot "repo…

> There are many, many journalists who work on stories that do not have "hour from now" deadlines. But now it sounds like you're agreeing with me. So the ones who are reporting on stories that are still actively happening should hold off on the opinion, right? > You cannot "report the facts and leave the opinion to someone else". Even the order in which you report facts is implicitly an opinion. "100% is impossible s…

I'm not agreeing with you.

>Journalists are reporting on things that happened today, and the deadline is in an hour.

This is not the definition of a journalist.

>"100% is impossible so 90% is no different than 3%" is the perfect as the enemy of the good.

This is written as if reduction of journalistic opinion is the goal. I don't agree this is a goal. I'm not interested in a reduction of subjectivity in journalism. I'm interested in an increase in factual, expansive, multi-viewpoint reporting and analysis. If that comes with 3% journalistic opinion (whatever that means) or 83%, I'm fine with it.

What's not ok is journalistic subjectivity filling in for factual, expansive, multi-viewpoint reporting. However, there are plenty of journalists who are clearly capable of avoiding this issue.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#227
I really like the paper that shows that higher density of associations (the way Putnam measures "social capital") was associated with higher support for the Nazi party in Germany[^1]. Things are not as simple as "trust=good".

[1]:https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/690949?jou...

Re: The high price of mistrust

#228
With more trust, there is less profit the corporations can make, and less tax income. There are many reasons for the decline of trust in the community. I think that one of them is marketing that exploits fears of strangers or peddles weird apps that replace parts of human interaction.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#230
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a much smaller scale, though. After living most of my life in Brazil, I still bristle at how stuff happens here in the US, with much less papertrail than I'm used to because people often trust the systems and people in place. When I bought a home I just wired the down payment, didn't get anything other than the bank statement saying I had wired the money. In Brazil I'd get a paper proving they got it and stuff. So…

I see what you mean, and when it comes to institutions and government, we are also very trusting.

That is, we trust institutions because we trust that the government has our backs if they screw us.
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