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Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

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Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#241

Post by darth_avocado »

deadbunny wrote: post #226
darth_avocado wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are only forced if they start being dangerous to other people Really this definition needs to be more strict. In San Francisco, you could be drugged up, throw needles and broken alcohol bottles on the street, openly defecate, and this behavior is still considered not dangerous. A better way to deal with this is to allow people to reject welfare, but if they do, they still need to live as a decent member of t…

> A better way to deal with this is to allow people to reject welfare, but if they do, they still need to live as a decent member of the society. And if they refuse to "live as a decent member of society"?

Apply the same set of rules that apply to the larger society. If I throw trash around in the society, I would be fined hundreds of dollars, and failing to produce the amount, will face punishment and even jail. No reason these set of rules should not apply to everyone.

Rehabilitation, reeducation and basic assistance should always be the first step (Welfare). But if you opt out and willingly chose to continue to damage the overall society, you should then also be willing to face the consequences. Just like criminal justice system, for minor offenses, you get off with warnings, but if you show up for the fifth time at a courthouse for a drunken disorderly conduct, you go to jail.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#242

Post by refurb »

e40 wrote: post #215
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #206

I'm in the US. I was homeless as a teenager (not by choice). I live adjacent to a major homeless community (not by design). My ex left our family to join the homeless community (she struggles with mh issues). I have some observations. We could sharply reduce homeless numbers here if we had in-patient mental health facilities (for non-wealthy), comprehensive housing aid and politically powerful job placement programs.…

In-patient services for mental health were decimated in the 80's. Reagan cut the funding and cities were flooded with homeless + mentally ill people. I was at UC Berkeley at the time this happened. There were so many seriously mentally ill folks on the street. It was sad.

This is about as inaccurate a take as one could possibly imagine and is a great example of seeing the world through political bias.

Reagan did not lead the charge. The ACLU was actively involved in shutting down inpatient psychiatric facilities because of the abuse that was occurring.[1]

With the advent of antipsychotics, our-patient treatment became an option and was regarded as more humane.

[1] https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-mental-institutions

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#243

Post by bigmattystyles »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #206

I'm in the US. I was homeless as a teenager (not by choice). I live adjacent to a major homeless community (not by design). My ex left our family to join the homeless community (she struggles with mh issues). I have some observations. We could sharply reduce homeless numbers here if we had in-patient mental health facilities (for non-wealthy), comprehensive housing aid and politically powerful job placement programs.…

Not to mention if a night in jail or fine (which itself is not warranted if the person is only mentally ill and not a danger to anyone or themselves), turns into a criminal charge that is then prosecuted and leads to a conviction, you've just made their path to rejoining society so much harder. Likely, their mental health predispositions will also be made much worse due to the strain of prison. The system keeps trotting along because there's money to be made by prisons. People reflexively want the homeless off the streets and will tolerate, even reward heavy handed prosecutors. I've fallen in that category of punitive nearby residents - I live in a place near what has become a runaway encampment. When I drive by it and think how close my place is, I get angry at the homeless, the blight and trash. I have to force myself to think of the humanity, the suffering and lack of options these folks have. But to be honest, other than try to support local action to help these people, I don't do much either. I take pride in not joining the rest of the NIMBYs but you wouldn't believe the shit fit people around here threw because mobile showers were coming to the encampment once a week. Some of the people who threw the biggest shit fit also have political yard signs supporting anti-poverty measures, but as they say, talk is cheap; yard sign, sure - build cheap community housing near me or allow people to camp - hold your horses...

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#244

Post by offtop5 »

jariel wrote: post #214
offtop5 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll say this as someone who's been evicted twice, the number one reason the vast majority of people end up homeless is because they don't have money. This can happen for a small array of reasons, let's say you're in a bad marriage and your spouse leaves. You simply can't make the rent anymore, you're now homeless. 19 years old, and you're getting into really bad fights with your parents, you're now homeless. Develop…

I think there are generally accepted to be 2 categories - those that fall out temporarily and the long term homeless. Your situation is more the former. It's really common and that's what basic safety nets are for. The longer term folks - serious drug addiction, mental illness, excessive abuse etc. etc. - those are the harder cases.

>Your situation is more the former. It's really common and that's what basic safety nets are for.

Like a 10 year Section 8 waiting list ?

Sorry for the snark, but no social safety net really exist in America. If you don't have a place to go, you don't have it.

In many states if you don't have kids you can't get effective aid. And even with you can still end up sleeping in a car .

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#245

Post by recursive »

kleiba wrote: post #218
giantg2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only do they tend to select larger cities, but also warmer cities. You mostly hear about the homeless population in places like San Francisco, Oahu, Austin, etc. If you're homeless, you might as well go to a place where you're less likely to freeze to death. Although there are some homeless in places likes Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc. Not to mention some cities will give them money if they take a bus to another…

[...] but also warmer cities [...] like San Francisco [...] Err...?

Seems fair to me in comparison to Pittsburgh and Philadelphia

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#246

Post by Jochim »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #171
iSnow wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. After a certain point, alcoholism is no longer a choice or preference, it's a debilitating disease. And before that point, it's frequently self-medication for untreated mental problems. Consider this: alcohol is the only mood-elevating drug sold freely, of course a percentage people will jump on it if they have massive problems. Not going to c…

Mood-elevating? Isn't it the opposite. Interestingly, perhaps, I rather feel it might only be poverty - the need to afford food instead - that's kept me from affording enough alcohol to abuse. I'm in a much better place now. The point is that "give poor people food, clothing, and a home" is not an answer in general. One needs people who are equipped and who care for you ... finding people who actually care is beyond…

The point is that giving poor people clothing, and a home is the start. It's the first step in a process that allows you to target narrower segments with more specific needs and it's both better for society and cheaper than locking them up.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#247

Post by caturopath »

thebean11 wrote: post #225
klodolph wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just an observation. The mental health system doesn’t have much capacity to begin with. Even for middle-class folk with insurance it can be very hard to get treatment. There is a shortage of mental health professionals which is projected to get worse. Psychiatrists are mostly doing medication management because that’s where they’re most effective. Following the path of getting treatment—everything including diagnosis…

> Psychiatrists are mostly doing medication management because that’s where they’re most effective. I think it's money: insurance will shell a lot more $/hour if they do 15 minute medication appointments instead of hour therapy + medication appointments.

Integrating counselling and medical doctoring is a strange idea, and it's somewhat weird that it's even as much of a thing as it is. Drug-focused psychiatrists are certainly going to be a thing so long as med school is so costly and med schools conspire to keep the supply of doctors low.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#248

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

giantg2 wrote: post #21
burntoutfire wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something in the handling of the homeless problem had failed in that city. Or, the homeless are recent migrants from other areas? At least where i live, the homeless all congregate in biggest wealthiest cities, because it's easier to beg, their presence blends in more and also local communities are more atomized so they don't fight off the homeless as hard as in smaller places. I've heard a story of one homeless gu…

Not only do they tend to select larger cities, but also warmer cities. You mostly hear about the homeless population in places like San Francisco, Oahu, Austin, etc. If you're homeless, you might as well go to a place where you're less likely to freeze to death. Although there are some homeless in places likes Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc. Not to mention some cities will give them money if they take a bus to another…

Is there any data that homeless people "select" expensive cities?

There's a lot of evidence that expensive cities create homeless people [1, 2, 3].

[1] https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/12/14/18131047/homelessne...

[2] https://archive.curbed.com/2016/8/26/12652130/homelessness-e...

[3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-06/why-is-ho...

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#249

Post by Tiktaalik »

vkou wrote: post #191
barbacoa wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was always a homeless population but they would stay in shelters or camp deep in the woods and keep to themselves. Now homeless are leaving the shelters and choosing to live in the streets. since 2019 (when the camping ordinance was passed): * homelessness has increased 11% * Un-sheltered homelessness is up 45% * Numbers in shelters and transitional housing is down 20% https://www.statesman.com/news/20200519/au…

Why do you think homeless people are choosing to sleep rough, rather than stay in shelters?

There's many reasons why the homeless may choose not to sleep in shelters or certain types of low income housing.

People may be forced to give up property or pets, may be separated from companions. The indoor housing could be unhealthy and vermin filled. It could be an unhealthy environment and den of drug use that the person is trying to avoid.

In Vancouver reporting on the homeless that have chosen to live in Strathcona Park (some 200+) a park resident noted that they were offered a spot at a Single Room Occupancy hotel, but he left because there were "crazy people with machetes" running around.

It's incredible but many of these options for the homeless are so substandard that sleeping outside is a better, healthier and safer option.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#250

Post by SaintGhurka »

jupiter90000 wrote: post #199
SaintGhurka wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add some missing details on this, in 2018/19 the city council passed some ordinances that removed the criminality of some homeless activities. Specifically, they made it explicitly legal to camp in most public spaces (excluding parks) and they permit panhandling, sitting and sleeping on public sidewalks. So there's a lot of "campsites" downtown. A lot of tents, or just people in sleeping bags on the sidewalk. A lo…

Any ideas why it seems like tech hotspots start passing laws like this? I'm thinking of San Francisco, Seattle, and Austin. I feel like there is some correlation, but I do not know what it is. My perspective is that maybe it seems more compassionate to not outlaw street camping, but I do not see how it is helpful to anyone including the ones on the street to allow this to continue.

I don't know, but San Francisco, Seattle, and Austin are all pretty similar politically, falling to the left of the democratic mainstream. I don't think that's a new development since they became tech hotspots.

As for whether it's compassionate, I'd just note that at the extreme, compassion stops being a virtue.

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