Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 360 posts

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#191

Post by vkou »

barbacoa wrote: post #188
vkou wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you have no homeless people, or were they still sleeping rough, just without a tarp to keep the wind and the rain off their heads?

There was always a homeless population but they would stay in shelters or camp deep in the woods and keep to themselves. Now homeless are leaving the shelters and choosing to live in the streets. since 2019 (when the camping ordinance was passed): * homelessness has increased 11% * Un-sheltered homelessness is up 45% * Numbers in shelters and transitional housing is down 20% https://www.statesman.com/news/20200519/au…

Why do you think homeless people are choosing to sleep rough, rather than stay in shelters?

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#192

Post by Merem »

ido wrote: post #82
empiricus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

small addition which should clarify some more the issue: romani == gypsy

At least in the German speaking countries the word Gypsy ("Zigeuner" in German) is considered a racial slur similarly (if not quite as strongly) ill-considered in usage as N*gger is in English. There aren't a lot of Romani in the US, which I think is why Americans aren't aware this is a word you should avoid (but I'm pretty sure it is also considered a slur in English in Britain and Ireland).

Never heard of "Zigeuner" being considered a racial slur. I've usually heard it/hear it when it comes to certain people (actually, two varieties even - one tied to the "Zirkus" and the other one being a group of "Landstreicher" basically) but that's not tied to an ethnicity or whatever.

A more prominent example would be the word "Neger" where the media tells us it's a terrible word, insulting, racial slur etc etc, yet however, it is used by normal people in a conversation without any issues. It's funny how irrational media (and some crazies) get, ignoring all context, how something and with what intention something is said. There is always a stark contrast between that and actual real life. I, for one, like to eat my "Negerkuss".

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#193

Post by renewiltord »

vkou wrote: post #173
mbg721 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That varies a lot regionally. Plenty of people use "gipped" for "ripped off", and "Zigeuner Schnitzel" is on the menu at US German-cuisine restaurants. For once, it's us who haven't caught up with the magical outrage words.

> That varies a lot regionally. Plenty of people use "gipped" for "ripped off", In my experience, they tend to stop, when you gently remind them that a very similar term that means the exact same thing, but refers to jews, has fallen out of favour in recent decades.

What's the word that refers to Jewish people?

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#194

Post by watwut »

itake wrote: post #148
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're already coming across as very judgmental of these people. Have you actually talked to them? Do you know why they prefer their lifestyle? I mean you just implied that mental health is a lifestyle or addiction (??? maybe check your phrasing), and that drug addiction is a lifestyle choice instead of e.g. a coping mechanism because society failed them.

> Have you actually talked to them? yes. Everyone has their own story. Checkout these interviews on Youtube: LA - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ZFzEW7_Q4 Seattle - https://youtu.be/bpAi70WWBlw?t=877 The homeless I talked with in Boulder romanticize camping forever along the creeks and being free from society, while trying to leach off of public services. > Do you know why they prefer their lifestyle? Drug addicti…

> Sorry if this sounds conservative, but trying to blame other people for your problems doesn't really get you any where.

The person you are responding to is not homeless and is not talking about own problems at all. Much less blaming own homeless problem on somebody else.

Instead, he is someone who is trying to talk about strategies people like him, non homeless people, can push for so that other peoples chance to become homeless is smaller.

Basically, compete opposite of your accusation.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#195

Post by watwut »

collyw wrote: post #122
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woop, there's the "socialism is a slippery slope to communism" argument.

Isn't socialism supposed to be the stepping stone to communism (but usually ends up in totalitarianism instead)?

No. Communism was supposed to be abrupt revolution and transformation. The democratic socialism was seen as enemy, because it made people calmer, happier and less likely to commit to revolution.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#196

Post by renewiltord »

collyw wrote: post #128
ido wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The racist part is generalizing the behaviour of some people to everyone of that ethnicity. I'm sure a few decades ago you'd easily find plenty of Europeans telling you they are not bothered by the Jews' ethnicity per-se but by their behaviour.

Godwins law.

Godwin's Law isn't "if you mention Hitler you are wrong".

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#197

Post by renewiltord »

Cloudef wrote: post #6

Note that the "homeless" people in Finland are mainly people who refuse to accept support from the social welfare, this is because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. The social welfare eventually suggests a different system for such people: pay the rent for them and give a special card that can be used for anything except alcohol and cigarette. If the people keep refusing that other opt…

This is literally what people say about San Francisco as well: "They don't want the help" etc. etc. It's like the same thing.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#198

Post by ACow_Adonis »

missedthecue wrote: post #176
1024core wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such people are very rare in Finland in reality however, Given the severity of Finnish winters, I'm not surprised. Try a similar approach in, say, Hawaii or the Bahamas, and see how many homeless you'll see roaming around.

We have real life data. Cities in California are spending north of $50,000 a year per homeless person (higher than finland's median income!) and the problem is still as bad as ever. The climate is also dry and warm 330 days a year.

except we also have additional data from overseas. Australia has comparatively mild winters and my family is originally from Queensland where some of the "worst" towns for unemployment and disadvantage clearly have a bit of a "paradise" effect (that is to say, if you're going to live on unemployment, you might as well live where there's good weather, fishing and swimming year round and prices are a bit cheaper than the urban centres).

Australia does provide public housing, but I'll take a stab and say it's cut back from its peak amount.

When you travel through California (and the US in general), i'd estimate homelessness and poverty to be at least an order of magnitude worse in the US (I want to hesitate to say two orders of magnitude worse) compared to anything I see at home. Clearly there's something about society and/or the structure of social safety nets that has a real and measurable effect on poverty and homelessness overall.

/ before someone jumps onto Google to try to disprove me: I've been to both countries (several times in fact), and worked with both homelessness and official national statistics. One of the things internet pundits misunderstand is the definition and measures of homelessness/poverty between the two countries: I think my estimate is pretty fair napkin math, it might be a 4 or 5 multiple instead, but I think we're quibbling by that point.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#199

Post by jupiter90000 »

SaintGhurka wrote: post #47
austincheney wrote: post #7

The city of Austin, TX could be a case study of what not to do. I was remotely employed to company with offices in Austin in 2014-2015 and it was awesome to visit and walk around down town. I always had a blast. I visited Austin in 2019 and there were homeless people EVERYWHERE. Every green space and nearly every street corner seemed to be littered with homeless people. The difference crystal clear. Something in the…

To add some missing details on this, in 2018/19 the city council passed some ordinances that removed the criminality of some homeless activities. Specifically, they made it explicitly legal to camp in most public spaces (excluding parks) and they permit panhandling, sitting and sleeping on public sidewalks. So there's a lot of "campsites" downtown. A lot of tents, or just people in sleeping bags on the sidewalk. A lo…

Any ideas why it seems like tech hotspots start passing laws like this? I'm thinking of San Francisco, Seattle, and Austin. I feel like there is some correlation, but I do not know what it is. My perspective is that maybe it seems more compassionate to not outlaw street camping, but I do not see how it is helpful to anyone including the ones on the street to allow this to continue.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#200

Post by bbatsell »

renewiltord wrote: post #193
vkou wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That varies a lot regionally. Plenty of people use "gipped" for "ripped off", In my experience, they tend to stop, when you gently remind them that a very similar term that means the exact same thing, but refers to jews, has fallen out of favour in recent decades.

What's the word that refers to Jewish people?

https://www.jta.org/2019/09/25/culture/what-does-jew-down-me...
Post reply on HN