Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#171

Post by pbhjpbhj » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #70

Cloudef wrote: post #6

Note that the "homeless" people in Finland are mainly people who refuse to accept support from the social welfare, this is because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. The social welfare eventually suggests a different system for such people: pay the rent for them and give a special card that can be used for anything except alcohol and cigarette. If the people keep refusing that other opt…

>because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. After a certain point, alcoholism is no longer a choice or preference, it's a debilitating disease. And before that point, it's frequently self-medication for untreated mental problems. Consider this: alcohol is the only mood-elevating drug sold freely, of course a percentage people will jump on it if they have massive problems. Not going to c…

Mood-elevating? Isn't it the opposite.

Interestingly, perhaps, I rather feel it might only be poverty - the need to afford food instead - that's kept me from affording enough alcohol to abuse. I'm in a much better place now.

The point is that "give poor people food, clothing, and a home" is not an answer in general. One needs people who are equipped and who care for you ... finding people who actually care is beyond democratic governance.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#172

Post by tartoran » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #38

Cloudef wrote: post #6

Note that the "homeless" people in Finland are mainly people who refuse to accept support from the social welfare, this is because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. The social welfare eventually suggests a different system for such people: pay the rent for them and give a special card that can be used for anything except alcohol and cigarette. If the people keep refusing that other opt…

> pay the rent for them and give a special card that can be used for anything except alcohol and cigarette In theory that works but addictions are super powerful, so what ends up happening is that the person will still obtain cigarettes and alcohol, even if it requires begging to get the cash for it. Or they will trade their subsidized food for cash or cigarettes/booze.

For hard addicts, I don't know, they'd do anything to get their fix and that can manifest in unproductive ways for the society: theft, muggings, etc. I'd actually let incurable cases of addiction get their fix for free in exchange for some things such as bathing regularly, stay in shelters at night and not wonder the streets, etc. I'd be a win-win situations in my opinion. Living in NYC allows me to see a very large number of homeless people. And what makes it really worse is that there are sometimes almost 1-to-1 to train cars and there is no way of escaping the stench on trains. If you weren't forced to be stuck in a subway car with a homeless with half of the car packed and the other completely empty except for one sleeping stinking homeless person. The other day my wife took my kid on the train and a homeless guy started smoking on the train. When the train got off she got off that car and got on the next one. It was worse, the smell of rotten gangrene is not something I'd wish upon anyone.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#173

Post by vkou » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 8:55 PM UTC

mbg721 wrote: post #129

rendall wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty common knowledge to be a slur in the US too

That varies a lot regionally. Plenty of people use "gipped" for "ripped off", and "Zigeuner Schnitzel" is on the menu at US German-cuisine restaurants. For once, it's us who haven't caught up with the magical outrage words.

> That varies a lot regionally. Plenty of people use "gipped" for "ripped off",

In my experience, they tend to stop, when you gently remind them that a very similar term that means the exact same thing, but refers to jews, has fallen out of favour in recent decades.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#174

Post by michael1999 » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #167

jseliger wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most American cities will do absolutely anything to reduce homelessness except build more housing: https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i-will-do-anything-to-en... California cities are probably the worst offenders: https://seliger.com/2017/08/30/l-digs-hole-slowly-economics-... , but even Austin is underbuilding relative to demand.

One of the very liberal reporters at the LA Times did a series of articles on the homeless crisis in LA a year or two ago. He actually had difficulty finding a homeless person who was from Southern California. Nearly all of the homeless were from other states or other countries. It's not California's failure so much as it is that the rest of the nation is using California to warehouse their homeless so they can feel…

Remember that only 40% of Californians are from California. Most people in California aren't from there.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#175

Post by GekkePrutser » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

teekert wrote: post #90

Cloudef wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those people are given help, but if they refuse that, there's nothing you can really do. People are only forced if they start being dangerous to other people.

It's pretty much the same in the Netherlands, given enough issues and after failing to get you back to work you basically land in a situation where the state pays for your existence though direct money and a lot of subsidies (ie when the stress of work cause a relapse in your drinking habits and it happened time and time again over the past 10 years). It is thus very difficult to understand why there are homeless peo…

Exactly, it's not a choice.

Also, I think the current method of making alcohol really expensive through levies is not working. It only makes homeless addicted people poorer and more likely to turn to crime.

The rest of us don't give a shit how much it costs, we don't use much of it anyway. The price is never a factor in getting addicted or getting off it.

All it is is the government profiteering of people who can't help themselves.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#176

Post by missedthecue » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #169

Cloudef wrote: post #6

Note that the "homeless" people in Finland are mainly people who refuse to accept support from the social welfare, this is because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. The social welfare eventually suggests a different system for such people: pay the rent for them and give a special card that can be used for anything except alcohol and cigarette. If the people keep refusing that other opt…

> Such people are very rare in Finland in reality however, Given the severity of Finnish winters, I'm not surprised. Try a similar approach in, say, Hawaii or the Bahamas, and see how many homeless you'll see roaming around.

We have real life data. Cities in California are spending north of $50,000 a year per homeless person (higher than finland's median income!) and the problem is still as bad as ever. The climate is also dry and warm 330 days a year.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#177

Post by GekkePrutser » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #169

Cloudef wrote: post #6

Note that the "homeless" people in Finland are mainly people who refuse to accept support from the social welfare, this is because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. The social welfare eventually suggests a different system for such people: pay the rent for them and give a special card that can be used for anything except alcohol and cigarette. If the people keep refusing that other opt…

> Such people are very rare in Finland in reality however, Given the severity of Finnish winters, I'm not surprised. Try a similar approach in, say, Hawaii or the Bahamas, and see how many homeless you'll see roaming around.

This is what I thought... I suppose living on the street in such a climate can be deadly even. Definitely reduce life expectancy.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#178

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #36

Cloudef wrote: post #6

Note that the "homeless" people in Finland are mainly people who refuse to accept support from the social welfare, this is because they prefer to get drunk instead of spending it on food and rent. The social welfare eventually suggests a different system for such people: pay the rent for them and give a special card that can be used for anything except alcohol and cigarette. If the people keep refusing that other opt…

> the Romanian beggars you see in Helsinki streets. While Finns tend to use the term "Romanian beggars", this can be inaccurate and misleading. I understand that this confusion could have arisen because "Romani people" and "Romanian people" sound similar in Finnish and some of them are from Romania. However, many of them come from Bulgaria as well – a very large community comes from the Bulgarian town of Pleven seaso…

[deleted]

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#179

Post by vkou » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

barbacoa wrote: post #103

SaintGhurka wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add some missing details on this, in 2018/19 the city council passed some ordinances that removed the criminality of some homeless activities. Specifically, they made it explicitly legal to camp in most public spaces (excluding parks) and they permit panhandling, sitting and sleeping on public sidewalks. So there's a lot of "campsites" downtown. A lot of tents, or just people in sleeping bags on the sidewalk. A lo…

Worth noting, before the city council legalized homeless camping there were literally zero tents.

Did you have no homeless people, or were they still sleeping rough, just without a tarp to keep the wind and the rain off their heads?

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#180

Post by _abox » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #176

1024core wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such people are very rare in Finland in reality however, Given the severity of Finnish winters, I'm not surprised. Try a similar approach in, say, Hawaii or the Bahamas, and see how many homeless you'll see roaming around.

We have real life data. Cities in California are spending north of $50,000 a year per homeless person (higher than finland's median income!) and the problem is still as bad as ever. The climate is also dry and warm 330 days a year.

With that kind of spending, how can it be that homeless people have trouble finding shelters? Sounds like a lot of that money is going to middlemen and outsourcing companies than the actual people that need it.