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Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

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Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#61

Post by AWildC182 »

cycomanic wrote: post #55
AWildC182 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edited my comment when I saw this. This is exceedingly dangerous. Ask any rower that's worked with people on C2 machines. Everyone will instinctively throw the damper to setting 10, then throw their back due to bad posture.

I'm a former rower as well, I disagree that sitting on a rower is dangerous for getting back injury. Considering that pretty much every gym I know just puts them in some corner without anyone around who knows how to row, I believe this is not an issue. I know of no one who has injured themselves rowing (on a machine or outside).

This is going to come down to experience but I'd say the majority of those I trained with had dealt with an injury at one point or another. Most women, particularly the lightweight class experienced broken ribs from strain across the core and most of the guys had lower back issues at one point or another.

I'm not saying these things are death machines or anything, but the concept of adding essentially seated row to a rowing machine is fairly dangerous. Throwing an air damper up to 10 and ripping on it for a couple minutes will leave you quite sore the next morning but adding high weight can start pulling muscles or slipping discs.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#62

Post by AWildC182 »

FullNameAndy wrote: post #31
AWildC182 wrote: post #13

Long time high level rower here. Why make a new rowing machine when Concept 2 is the calibration standard all athletes use and has a relatively open USB interface? For those not in the know, rowing machines all have different calibrations. C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across machines and are by far the best made allowing for many thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced rower…

Great question and ADominic answered it well. The C2 is an amazing rower, I have one too. We don't target the hard core rower. And a huge part of our high intensity experience is the electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of resistance. Our rower automatically adjusts the resistance depending on the workout and your goals.

Why vary resistance? Most athletes learn to handle one resistance setting, the National Team standard being IIRC DF120, though anything between 100 and 120 is fine. Changing it tends to throw people for a loop.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#63

Post by cycomanic »

Great idea! I used to be a competitive rower. When I was working at a gym during my studies I was actually talking with the managers of running some rowing classes (similar to spinning).

I think the main challenge with rowing machines (and the reason why we didn't do rowing classes), is that for beginners there is essentially only hard or off, i.e. it is difficult to adjust to different exhaustion levels. That leads to high frustration levels and is the reason why one rarely sees someone at the gym using the machines more than 5mins (and those that do are often former rowers). So HIT is probably the right way to go.

The other challenge I is related to hardware. The reason why everyone is talking about the C2s is that pretty much every other machine is crap. The forces pulling on these machines are substantive and concept managed to make a machine that held up over time, unlike the others. So I hope you guys made those things sturdy enough.

All the best, I hope you succeed!

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#64

Post by naewonawonga »

FullNameAndy wrote: post #31
AWildC182 wrote: post #13

Long time high level rower here. Why make a new rowing machine when Concept 2 is the calibration standard all athletes use and has a relatively open USB interface? For those not in the know, rowing machines all have different calibrations. C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across machines and are by far the best made allowing for many thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced rower…

Great question and ADominic answered it well. The C2 is an amazing rower, I have one too. We don't target the hard core rower. And a huge part of our high intensity experience is the electronically controlled resistance that adds up to 100+ lbs of resistance. Our rower automatically adjusts the resistance depending on the workout and your goals.

>> We don't target the hard core rower.

Your marketing material suggests that one of the strengths of the platform is that it allows one to compete against professional athletes and Olympians.

Which is it?

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#65

Post by useful »

I have a C2 and a Wahoo Kickr.

I think you are targeting the wrong market if you intend to build a machine.

As a cyclist, the market sweet spot to me is the ability to set a wattage on a rower and have the machine automatically adjust the resistance so that I can hit the correct wattage/hour.

On the bike, holding a steady cadence and having the machine adjust the resistance so I can hit whatever % of FTP I'm wanting is the killer feature the C2 is missing.

All the other comments referencing injuries/etc are reflective of the need to make an ERG that allows you to just say "do 25 strokes/min" and if you blow up or cant hold the pace, drop the target wattage. It's harder to hurt yourself if the machine is setting the difficulty based on your pace and putting some sane max limits in.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#66

Post by FullNameAndy »

exotree wrote: post #57

I think this is a great and fantastic idea; it's something I imagine a lot of Crossfit folks would be very willing to buy, especially in a pandemic. And it's a target market with money and motivation! I definitely prefer this over biking.

Exactly our target. The competitive folks who are lacking HIIT workout options at home.. like you said especially with the pandemic. Thanks!

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#68

Post by dumbfoundded »

FullNameAndy wrote: post #47
dumbfoundded wrote: post #12

I always felt a large missing aspect was the realism as it relates to water. In particular, on a machine you neither feather nor feel variable resistance due to how vertical your blade is. There are a lot of specific details that the machine doesn't capture that I think make the actual experience on the water much more thoughtful than just pulling as hard and fast as you can.

You are 100% right. We try our best to create an experience that is as similar to rowing on water as possible, but of course it won't be the same. But most people who purchase our rower aren't looking for a realistic experience, they want an amazing workout that's fun more than anything.

With variable electronic resistance and a rotating handle it should be possible, it should be possible in theory. It's definitely not something everyone is going for. I think you could improve form a lot just by helping people make sure their getting full extension and going through the motions in the correct order.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#69

Post by Alex3917 »

AWildC182 wrote: post #61
cycomanic wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a former rower as well, I disagree that sitting on a rower is dangerous for getting back injury. Considering that pretty much every gym I know just puts them in some corner without anyone around who knows how to row, I believe this is not an issue. I know of no one who has injured themselves rowing (on a machine or outside).

This is going to come down to experience but I'd say the majority of those I trained with had dealt with an injury at one point or another. Most women, particularly the lightweight class experienced broken ribs from strain across the core and most of the guys had lower back issues at one point or another. I'm not saying these things are death machines or anything, but the concept of adding essentially seated row to a…

Most high-level rowers develop back problems, but these aren't primarily from the rowing machine, and your chances of developing the same kinds of problems while casually working out to meet your daily fitness goals are basically zero.

E.g. almost all high-level swimmers have shoulder problems, but no one who just goes for a swim a few times a week is going to injure their shoulders. Almost all baseball players have ankle problems, but no one who plays baseball with friends after work is at risk of this.

The reason rowers get back problems is basically a combination of overuse, the asymmetric load-bearing motion of sweep, and underdeveloped antagonistic muscles. Given the device and the target market, none of these issues are really at play here.

Re: Launch HN: Aviron (YC W21) – High-Intensity Peloton for Rowing

#70

Post by gregsadetsky »

AWildC182 wrote: post #13

Long time high level rower here. Why make a new rowing machine when Concept 2 is the calibration standard all athletes use and has a relatively open USB interface? For those not in the know, rowing machines all have different calibrations. C2 is the standard because they're very consistent across machines and are by far the best made allowing for many thousands of hours of use without failures. Most experienced rower…

Not only does the C2 has an USB interface, but recent models have Bluetooth as well...! (I'm a happy C2 owner)

I found an example project some time ago of a web site using Chrome's Bluetooth JavaScript API to recreate a rowing monitor and filed it away in case I would ever get to that side project :-)

In case someone's interested to collab: I would build a 3D world through which you row. I know apps/games like these exist but an open version would be great (also the ones I found seemed to have so-so 3d graphics). And compatibility with VR headsets too..!

Just to add to this: an Apple TV-compatible, 3D rowing app would be supremely interesting to consider...

Building a web-based C2 monitor via Bluetooth: https://bandarra.me/2017/02/20/Fitness-Tracking-with-Web-Blu...

Interacting with Bluetooth over JS: https://web.dev/bluetooth/

The Bluetooth communications spec from C2! https://www.concept2.co.uk/files/pdf/us/monitors/PM5_Bluetoo...

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