The high price of mistrust • Hacker News Board

Re: The high price of mistrust

#131

Post by inglor_cz » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #115

The importance of social trust has had a major impact on my belief in the importance of government-guaranteed tax-funded universal healthcare. Before about 2015, I thought it was nice, but not a pressing crisis, but around then, I started to notice things like signs saying "why does my insulin cost more than methadone?" and "why is medical marijuana cheaper than my heart disease medication?". These situations might h…

Czech doctors tend to complain about tons of paperwork, too. We have a public healthcare system with almost universal coverage.

There must be an element of "cover your ass" in there. Usually, excess of papers indicates someone's wariness of possible averse consequences down the line.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#132

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

roywiggins wrote: post #18

umvi wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did we read the same article? Just because someone doesn't agree with your view of the world doesn't automatically make them untrustworthy. From your perspective, maybe lives are more important than freedoms and you are willing to limit some freedoms temporarily or permanently if it means saving more lives. From someone else's perspective, maybe freedom is more important than lives, and they are willing to let some p…

Other people not wearing a mask makes me less safe. I don't know why I would want to trust such people. If they can't even take a basic precaution during a deadly pandemic then their judgement seems dangerously impaired. I don't trust them because I don't think they're trustworthy. Even if masks didn't work, stubborn refusal to wear them is nearly as bad- people should wear the even if they are skeptical on the effec…

[deleted]

Re: The high price of mistrust

#133

Post by iso1631 » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

misterbwong wrote: post #117

yamrzou wrote: post #88

The breakdown of trust in a society is a vicious cycle that seems hard to break. When a mistrust dynamic sets in, how can it be reversed?

Sounds overly-simplistic but the solution is to build trust again. Unfortunately, the incentives that rule our society are pushing us away from this. We need to align incentives properly if we're going to have any hope of building trust again. ex: 1. The internet, as a technology, is amazing but functions as a possible bullhorn for everyone, without filter. It does not reward the best possible or most positive idea,…

> Possibly unpopular view: Encouraging religious participation would go a long way to help. Whether you believe or do not, religion helps align society away from purely individualistic pursuits and more towards a "corporate good".

How does that work out in 3rd world countries where there's high levels of religious membership and high levels of angry young men

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun...

"Is religion important in your daily life"

There seems to be a correlation between countries with corrupt/untrusted governments and high religious importance.

Compare the Corruption Perceptions Index 2019 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index] with importance of religion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun...]

And you don't get an exact line, but there's certainly a trend there.

Those with high corruption and relatively low religion are ex Soviet/Commumist (Azerbajan, Ukraine, Russia, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Hungary, Belarus, Cuba have 50 corrupt)

There's always outliers, like Singapore (70% religious but only 15 corrupt / 85 notcorrupt), but there's a trend

https://i.imgur.com/oFiAbAN.png

Re: The high price of mistrust

#134

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

misterbwong wrote: post #117

yamrzou wrote: post #88

The breakdown of trust in a society is a vicious cycle that seems hard to break. When a mistrust dynamic sets in, how can it be reversed?

Sounds overly-simplistic but the solution is to build trust again. Unfortunately, the incentives that rule our society are pushing us away from this. We need to align incentives properly if we're going to have any hope of building trust again. ex: 1. The internet, as a technology, is amazing but functions as a possible bullhorn for everyone, without filter. It does not reward the best possible or most positive idea,…

[deleted]

Re: The high price of mistrust

#135

Post by the_local_host » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

irpapakons wrote: post #27

Ozzie_osman wrote: post #12

This applies to the workplace too, not just society at large. That's why if I'm ever at a company where I feel like I am mistrusted, or I mistrust the people I work with, I do what I can to leave. Not only is it an unpleasant environment to work in, but it feels predictive of failure.

I'm reading this article while waiting for one of the two people with write access to run my db migration, as developers don't get write access to the database in this company. Is this common?

Anyone who removes the "you break it, you bought it" scenario by denying you access to production is actually doing you a huge favor.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#136

Post by xyzzyz » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

khawkins wrote: post #113

The gig economy exploits the efficiencies of a trusting society masterfully. It would have been unthinkable 20 years ago that we'd let total strangers drive us home from bars and use our houses like hotels. But it turns out that with only a little oversight, we can trust our fellow citizens just as well as an employee of a professional company. Systems of maintaining trust are very important, but having a trustworthy…

Contrary to what might be the common understanding in SV, we've actually had cabs before we had Uber. They also involved total strangers driving us home from bars. We've also had people rent their private homes as lodging: that's how I vacationed with my parents in Eastern Europe in early 1990s. Even today, if you go to any town on Baltic Sea, you'll find plenty of "Rooms" signs (in local language) on private homes; many of them have been up for decades.

All of what Uber and Airbnb do, had most definitely existed before. What Uber and Airbnb brought was making it much more efficient, convenient and safe. Uber and Airbnb use some level of social trust, but they also provide extra trust on their own, which comes from the rating function they provide. Before Uber and Airbnb, if you had bad experience in a cab or a rented lodging, there was little recourse, and the service provides had little incentive to behave well. Now, they can easily get kicked off the platform after too many complaints.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#137

Post by offtop5 » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

Meetup is a pretty good alternative to bowling now in days.

That and alumni groups, back in 2019 this was a part of my strictly offline dating strategy. Worked ridiculously well, I never encountered even any rudeness from anyone and I had a few great partners. Aside from that I really do enjoy going to tech talks and stuff, talking about array functions and all that good stuff.

What I have noticed, and I completely blame the social media age for this is how rare it is for spontaneous conversations to happen. I was elated when a young man saw me writing python on my computer and asked what I was working on, a few years back. And I gave him some career advice he was a recent graduate.

A chance encounter like that can give him his first job. I hope when Corona ends we become disinterested in these supercomputers we carry around all day, and start living in the now.

>Our connections to other people require and encourage us to behave in ways that maintain those connections.

I think the sums up why the internet is so absurdly mean. if I go and say something horribly racist or misogynistic in the real world, I can expect consequences. I can expect no longer be welcomed in certain spaces, or get kicked out of my favorite bar or whatever. Online I can say whatever horrible things I can come up with, often just a mess of people and get a new username the next day.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#138

Post by mcguire » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:27 PM UTC

"One key lesson we can derive from Bowling Alone is that the less we trust each other—something which is both a cause and consequence of declining community engagement—the more it costs us. Mistrust is expensive."

Re: The high price of mistrust

#139

Post by triceratops » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

misterbwong wrote: post #117

yamrzou wrote: post #88

The breakdown of trust in a society is a vicious cycle that seems hard to break. When a mistrust dynamic sets in, how can it be reversed?

Sounds overly-simplistic but the solution is to build trust again. Unfortunately, the incentives that rule our society are pushing us away from this. We need to align incentives properly if we're going to have any hope of building trust again. ex: 1. The internet, as a technology, is amazing but functions as a possible bullhorn for everyone, without filter. It does not reward the best possible or most positive idea,…

I'm not sure religious participation is the answer. Organized religion is responsible for plenty of misinformation. In the recent pandemic, there have been multiple superspreader events at unauthorized religious gatherings.

Maybe sports leagues or mandatory national (or state) service?

Re: The high price of mistrust

#140

Post by hairofadog » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

misterbwong wrote: post #117

yamrzou wrote: post #88

The breakdown of trust in a society is a vicious cycle that seems hard to break. When a mistrust dynamic sets in, how can it be reversed?

Sounds overly-simplistic but the solution is to build trust again. Unfortunately, the incentives that rule our society are pushing us away from this. We need to align incentives properly if we're going to have any hope of building trust again. ex: 1. The internet, as a technology, is amazing but functions as a possible bullhorn for everyone, without filter. It does not reward the best possible or most positive idea,…

I think you're spot on about a lot of these points. On your last "unpopular view" about religion, religious groups can be like any other group of people in that each group falls somewhere on a spectrum between warm and welcoming vs. aggressively tribal. I think the sentiment is right, though – maybe "civic engagement" is what we're after here.