The high price of mistrust • Hacker News Board

Re: The high price of mistrust

#61

Post by lainga » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #44

jrexilius wrote: post #31

I've spent a lot of years overseas, in third-world or developing countries, often torn by tribal or civil war, or other natural and man-made disasters. I have come to realize how foundational trust is in a functioning economy and self-governing society. We in G8 nations often don't see it, like fish not thinking about water. I've been extremely concerned with the efforts of sub-groups in our societies attacking the f…

> I've been extremely concerned with the efforts of sub-groups in our societies attacking the foundations of trust. I assume you're referring to the neocons who lied us into the war in Iraq (and keep us there to this day), the Wall Street bankers & executives who created the 2008 financial crisis and the politicians who bailed them out at the people's expense, the military/intelligence and tech industry figures who s…

> I assume you're referring to the neocons who ...

Could you expand upon why? You mentioned your own perceptions on "attacking trust", but I didn't find much of that (or any assignment of blame to anyone) expressed in the parent comment.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#62

Post by hinkley » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #7

kyrieeschaton wrote: post #2

Unfortunately most research on social capital and mistrust has been desk-drawered or heavily self censored due to the political implications. https://www.chronicle.com/article/robert-putnam-and-the-ethi... https://www.city-journal.org/html/bowling-our-own-10265.html

Thinly veiled campaigning for the return of segregation? Because nothing increases trust like "whites only" signs?

To be fair, the author of the findings was trying to avoid such things happening, which were obvious to him. From the first link, it appears those efforts did not pay off.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#63

Post by iguy » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

jrexilius wrote: post #45

minikites wrote: post #29

I think one (of many) factors propelling this trend is income inequality. Imagine you're in the grocery store checkout line with luxury foods and how uncomfortable it might be to make conversation with the clerk who may be working three jobs and trying to parent two children. So we invented apps. Now we don't have to look up to hail a cab, we can look down at our phone. We don't even THINK about riding the bus ( http…

Income inequality isn't quite the spring-of-all-evils that it's being touted as. Although I think you are touching on some pressures and problems. Yes, it can be one of the factors in "othering" and can discourage commitment to a shared, common system, but I've been in lots of countries with low "inequality" that were far less trusting. True, it's apples/oranges comparison, but I'm not convinced that inequality is th…

There's also room for causality the other way, here. If feel you have a lot in common with your compatriots, and generally trust them, then you are (I claim) more likely to support paying taxes to support those who are having a rough time. High trust can lead to lower inequality.

Conversely, if you already feel you have nothing in common with others, then why not vote (if you have everything) to give them nothing, or (if you have nothing) why not vote to seize their property and distribute it?

Re: The high price of mistrust

#64

Post by Majestic121 » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

irpapakons wrote: post #27

Ozzie_osman wrote: post #12

This applies to the workplace too, not just society at large. That's why if I'm ever at a company where I feel like I am mistrusted, or I mistrust the people I work with, I do what I can to leave. Not only is it an unpleasant environment to work in, but it feels predictive of failure.

I'm reading this article while waiting for one of the two people with write access to run my db migration, as developers don't get write access to the database in this company. Is this common?

Yes, it's pretty common not to provide direct access to production data in general.

In my experience, migrations are usually part of the code base, evaluated as such with PR and whatnot, and run automatically when deploying.

It depends on the size and context of the company, but I would not necessarily see this as a lack of trust.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#65

Post by hinkley » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

kyrieeschaton wrote: post #11

pjc50 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinly veiled campaigning for the return of segregation? Because nothing increases trust like "whites only" signs?

> Data collected by eminent political scientist suggests ethnic diversity, amongst other things, massively lowers social trust > "Wow just wow what a 'racist campaign for the return of segregation'" I wonder why it is so difficult to do or publish research in this area?

Well, I mean of course an Old Boy's Network has more trust.

An echo chamber is trusting yourself and the other members - even when that trust is misplaced.

[ETA: does someone think I'm implying that's a good thing? It's not. It's bad for everyone, even the perpetrators.]

Re: The high price of mistrust

#66

Post by AndrewBissell » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

jrexilius wrote: post #51

AndrewBissell wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been extremely concerned with the efforts of sub-groups in our societies attacking the foundations of trust. I assume you're referring to the neocons who lied us into the war in Iraq (and keep us there to this day), the Wall Street bankers & executives who created the 2008 financial crisis and the politicians who bailed them out at the people's expense, the military/intelligence and tech industry figures who s…

No, actually I'm referring to groups on the left _and_ right. While popularizing the attacking of shared society and our systems foundations did start with the counter-culture left in the 60s, it has certainly become a bipartisan effort in recent decades.

All the things I mentioned were entirely bipartisan affairs. In fact, we just witnessed the president who initiated the Iraq War feted and lauded by the press for his appearance at the inauguration of a new president from the "opposing" party who enthusiastically endorsed that war as a Senator.

The counterculture left is a very broad category, with some legitimate and organic elements mixed up with some very confused, self-indulgent, or aimlessly subversive ones. But it didn't fire the first shots in the attack on trust, not by a long shot.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#67

Post by rayiner » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #44

jrexilius wrote: post #31

I've spent a lot of years overseas, in third-world or developing countries, often torn by tribal or civil war, or other natural and man-made disasters. I have come to realize how foundational trust is in a functioning economy and self-governing society. We in G8 nations often don't see it, like fish not thinking about water. I've been extremely concerned with the efforts of sub-groups in our societies attacking the f…

> I've been extremely concerned with the efforts of sub-groups in our societies attacking the foundations of trust. I assume you're referring to the neocons who lied us into the war in Iraq (and keep us there to this day), the Wall Street bankers & executives who created the 2008 financial crisis and the politicians who bailed them out at the people's expense, the military/intelligence and tech industry figures who s…

Spying is something nearly every single person I know can get behind, on the left or right. I’ve never seen it bleed into real life lack of trust.

Everything else on the other hand: https://news.yahoo.com/ex-gop-pollster-frank-luntz-172755768...

> “Bret, I couldn't control them. They just started yelling at each other, and it would take me two minutes to say to them, 'stop' - to put my hand up to the camera like I did right there for them to get control of themselves," Luntz said

Re: The high price of mistrust

#68

Post by umvi » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

ripe wrote: post #56

umvi wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other people not wearing a mask makes me less safe Yes, but that's been true for a long time, even before covid. I'm betting you didn't mistrust non-mask-wearers pre-covid even though I'm sure several millions have died in the US alone since early 1920s because people with the flu or other contagious diseases didn't wear a mask and went to work sick, etc. You just didn't notice because it happened at a rate that di…

> Well imagine all of your news sources downplay covid and even when you get it yourself it's not as bad as the hysteria led you to believe - just some mild flulike symptoms and loss of smell and taste. You start to mistrust all of the zealots... If you'd rather believe Fox News than scientists who are telling you this is much worse than the flu, then while you might not be a bad person, you've earned my mistrust. Yo…

> If you'd rather believe Fox News than scientists who are telling you this is much worse than the flu...

Scientists say it is much worse than the flu. For the vast majority who actually experience the disease, it is not much worse than the flu. Thus, people start to mistrust the science because there's a disparity between the statistics on paper and what people actually experience in reality. I think most people understand now that covid is basically like the flu 99% of the time, and much worse than the flu for a tiny subset (and for the most part, the tiny subset can self-identify).

Re: The high price of mistrust

#69

Post by roywiggins » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #68

ripe wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well imagine all of your news sources downplay covid and even when you get it yourself it's not as bad as the hysteria led you to believe - just some mild flulike symptoms and loss of smell and taste. You start to mistrust all of the zealots... If you'd rather believe Fox News than scientists who are telling you this is much worse than the flu, then while you might not be a bad person, you've earned my mistrust. Yo…

> If you'd rather believe Fox News than scientists who are telling you this is much worse than the flu... Scientists say it is much worse than the flu. For the vast majority who actually experience the disease, it is not much worse than the flu. Thus, people start to mistrust the science because there's a disparity between the statistics on paper and what people actually experience in reality. I think most people und…

I dunno. It's worse than flu for more than 1%, about 1% die from it. A much larger proportion need to be hospitalized than from flu in a normal flu season.

Re: The high price of mistrust

#70

Post by ndiscussion » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

Seeing 1950's America is heartbreaking for me. I grew up in the 90s, and I never saw a trusted society.

https://www.radiogunk.com/forums/index.php?threads/1950s-ame...

Where's the broken glass? The needles, the poop? The stumbling drunks harassing the young women? The masses of tents where children used to play?

What the fuck has happened to us?