Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months • Hacker News Board

Re: Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

#21

Post by eganist » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

Arathorn wrote: post #19

Arathorn wrote: post #17

Hi folks - we submitted The Matrix.org Foundation accounts via our accountants to UK Companies House several months ago. It's unclear why they're not showing on record; we initially understood it to be due to Covid delays, but we're now chasing the accountants to out find the specifics. If there turn out to be any fines due to late filing, these would not come out of donations, but whoever's fault it actually is for…

I've updated the Github issue with the last update from our accountants on this, after we already chased them in November: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2378#issueco...

You're under a bright enough limelight as of late, and especially right now, that the administrative overcharge of a reputable accounting firm such as any of the Big 4 may be worth the returns in the form of improved accountability - heh - and donations.

It'd be nice if you could commit to this. If your accountants are lagging by almost 3 months without filing an extension, you owe it to your donors. Blaming the accountants is fine, but in the end, you picked them, and you chose to stay with them.

(The value in the overcharge is really just that you've got a big bullseye you can throw darts at when accountability is required. This doesn't resonate with most entrepreneurs e.g. here on HN - as the greyed out comment alludes :) - but it does with more established firms largely for this reason.)

Re: Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

#22

Post by fartcannon » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

Arathorn wrote: post #17

Hi folks - we submitted The Matrix.org Foundation accounts via our accountants to UK Companies House several months ago. It's unclear why they're not showing on record; we initially understood it to be due to Covid delays, but we're now chasing the accountants to out find the specifics. If there turn out to be any fines due to late filing, these would not come out of donations, but whoever's fault it actually is for…

Man, ignore that guys ridiculous comment. If you fix that, he'll just find something else to whine about. It's like all the people bemoaning desktop Linux, when things like KDE have been providing (in my opinion) the best overall desktop experience for more than a decade.

I chose Matrix/Riot years ago over the other options for two reasons: 1) I could host my own if I wanted, and 2) It didn't require any identifying information like telephones.

Element's already great.

Re: Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

#23

Post by Nextgrid » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #21

Arathorn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've updated the Github issue with the last update from our accountants on this, after we already chased them in November: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2378#issueco...

You're under a bright enough limelight as of late, and especially right now, that the administrative overcharge of a reputable accounting firm such as any of the Big 4 may be worth the returns in the form of improved accountability - heh - and donations. It'd be nice if you could commit to this. If your accountants are lagging by almost 3 months without filing an extension, you owe it to your donors. Blaming the acco…

Maybe there's something I'm missing but why are these accounts still not filed electronically? My accountant can do it just fine.

Unless there's a specific reason why these accounts should be done on paper, the more reasonable and cost-effective solution would be to switch to an accountancy practice that isn't stuck in the past and there are plenty of those beyond the "big 4".

Re: Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

#24

Post by Arathorn » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #21

Arathorn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've updated the Github issue with the last update from our accountants on this, after we already chased them in November: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2378#issueco...

You're under a bright enough limelight as of late, and especially right now, that the administrative overcharge of a reputable accounting firm such as any of the Big 4 may be worth the returns in the form of improved accountability - heh - and donations. It'd be nice if you could commit to this. If your accountants are lagging by almost 3 months without filing an extension, you owe it to your donors. Blaming the acco…

So our accountants might not be Big 4, but they're in the top 30 in the UK and considered reputable. I'm pretty sure that the overcharge of a Big 4 would swallow up donations much more than a screwup like this. That said, we obviously don't want a repeat performance of this, and will be figuring out what to do to avoid it.

Re: Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

#25

Post by codeulike » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #21

Arathorn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've updated the Github issue with the last update from our accountants on this, after we already chased them in November: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2378#issueco...

You're under a bright enough limelight as of late, and especially right now, that the administrative overcharge of a reputable accounting firm such as any of the Big 4 may be worth the returns in the form of improved accountability - heh - and donations. It'd be nice if you could commit to this. If your accountants are lagging by almost 3 months without filing an extension, you owe it to your donors. Blaming the acco…

I wouldn't go anywhere near the Big 4 to be honest, this whole thread is a non-issue and if anything just points to problems inside Companies House

Re: Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

#26

Post by geofft » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #13

geofft wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would possibly argue it is ideal, even. The other two obvious alternatives is that the charity pays someone to deal with paperwork (which we wouldn't call "waste," but means even less of donations go towards the mission), or disorganized people just don't start charities and find for-profit jobs. If you want a vibrant charitable ecosystem, letting people be imperfect about how they run their charities is a good thi…

> letting people be imperfect about how they run their charities is a good thing I disagree - charities receive special protections and privileges from the public and in return they agree to make themselves accountable. If they aren't making themselves be accountable then they aren't keeping their side of the agreement with the public and their protections and privileges should be revoke.

The agreement with the public includes the agreement that a missed filing results in a fine, not in revocation of their protections and privileges.

But more generally - my claim is that if the public wants a deal with charities where they must be flawless, that's a bad deal for the public. Effective people will make mistakes sometimes, ranging from missing a filing deadline to hiring people who end up not good at their job to trying some charitable activity that ends up not working. If we hold them to a standard of perfection, the rational activity of the people behind the charity is to just do something else. Is that good for us?

Of course we want them to be accountable - I'm not arguing that they should be able to do whatever, and they should try to meet all these requirements, that's why we the public encoded the requirements in the first place. I'm arguing that there's a big difference between accountability and expecting perfection.

Re: Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

#27

Post by alohapersona » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #15

alohapersona wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What bothers me most is that Matthew mentioned in that issue that they did the accounts on Oct 29 (perfectly in time for the deadline) and that they plan to publish them. Yet apparently they did neither file them officially nor publish them by now...

No shade here, just curious. You(?) created this issue for the 2019 financials and are circling back around for 2020. Is this something you do for other orgs/projects or is there something about matrix.org where you feel it is particularly important?

As a donor I feel that organizations should provide some details how donations are used. I'm requesting the same from other organizations I'm donating to if those organizations are more than just three persons working on a free software project in their spare time.

Originally donations to matrix.org foundation were supposed to be used to fund matrix protocol work and to hire a developer. This is still listed as a goal (that was reached) on Patreon. Only due to asking I found out that this never happened and donations are used to pay matrix.org homeserver instead, which of course is also a good cause, but should be communicated transparently.

I don't mind the accounts specifically, I just think that making them public is the easiest way to fulfill the needs of transparency. Of course a summary on the website, a blog post with explanations, etc, would also be nice, but I understand those mean extra work and there might be more important things the prioritize.

Re: Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

#28

Post by eganist » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

Arathorn wrote: post #24

eganist wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're under a bright enough limelight as of late, and especially right now, that the administrative overcharge of a reputable accounting firm such as any of the Big 4 may be worth the returns in the form of improved accountability - heh - and donations. It'd be nice if you could commit to this. If your accountants are lagging by almost 3 months without filing an extension, you owe it to your donors. Blaming the acco…

So our accountants might not be Big 4, but they're in the top 30 in the UK and considered reputable. I'm pretty sure that the overcharge of a Big 4 would swallow up donations much more than a screwup like this. That said, we obviously don't want a repeat performance of this, and will be figuring out what to do to avoid it.

It might be worth the quick math.

As I put (edited, really) in my top comment, it's mostly just to have an entity you can reasonably go after if they goof.

A related question: Considering how far back this goes, what's stopping you from naming them? Is resolution in progress, or have they just been dead silent?

Re: Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

#29

Post by Arathorn » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 1:55 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #28

Arathorn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So our accountants might not be Big 4, but they're in the top 30 in the UK and considered reputable. I'm pretty sure that the overcharge of a Big 4 would swallow up donations much more than a screwup like this. That said, we obviously don't want a repeat performance of this, and will be figuring out what to do to avoid it.

It might be worth the quick math. As I put (edited, really) in my top comment, it's mostly just to have an entity you can reasonably go after if they goof. A related question: Considering how far back this goes, what's stopping you from naming them? Is resolution in progress, or have they just been dead silent?

They haven't been dead silent; last update was on Dec 15th saying they had been syncing with Companies House and the submission was in hand. I don't particularly want to name them though given I genuinely don't know at this point whether the bug is with Companies House or the accountants, and given the drama this has raised, I have no desire for a lynch mob to descend on them if they haven't done anything wrong.

Re: Matrix.org Foundation accounts filing overdue by three months

#30

Post by teruakohatu » Mon, Jan 25, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #28

Arathorn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So our accountants might not be Big 4, but they're in the top 30 in the UK and considered reputable. I'm pretty sure that the overcharge of a Big 4 would swallow up donations much more than a screwup like this. That said, we obviously don't want a repeat performance of this, and will be figuring out what to do to avoid it.

It might be worth the quick math. As I put (edited, really) in my top comment, it's mostly just to have an entity you can reasonably go after if they goof. A related question: Considering how far back this goes, what's stopping you from naming them? Is resolution in progress, or have they just been dead silent?

> what's stopping you from naming them?

And why do you care so much who they are? They didn't harm you and in reality they didn't harm anyone. In the real world people don't deal with minor contractual grievances by naming and shaming.