Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons • Hacker News Board

Re: Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons

#31

Post by ugh » Fri, May 27, 2011, 2:04 AM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #28

ugh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve got that slavery part right. Here is the Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” This led, for example, courts to conclude that prisoners have no right to be payed minimum wage. (I honestly don’t really know wh…

Consider your position if you were mistakenly convicted of a crime and incarcerated yourself. Would you have a problem with it then?

I accidentally sounded tough on crime. Who would have thought!

I want good conditions and adequate payment, no jobs that keep prisoners where they are. Well, scratch that, I want what works. I care about reducing the crime rate and keeping prisons quite empty, not punishment. I don’t know what role forced prison labor plays there and would be willing to accept it, should it be beneficial. I just don’t know.

There isn’t such a big difference between forcing someone to work and taking away someone’s freedom, it’s really hard to justify why one can’t, for example, exchange one with the other. It’s both about taking away human rights.

Re: Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons

#32

Post by vyrotek » Fri, May 27, 2011, 2:30 AM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #25

ck2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Arizona still has real chain gangs and other states had them as recently as the mid-90's.

> Arizona still has real chain gangs It's only in one county (Maricopa), and it's voluntary.

I grew up in Maricopa County (Peoria). I think Joe Arpaio had the right idea.

Re: Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons

#33

Post by hugh3 » Fri, May 27, 2011, 2:52 AM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #28

ugh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve got that slavery part right. Here is the Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” This led, for example, courts to conclude that prisoners have no right to be payed minimum wage. (I honestly don’t really know wh…

Consider your position if you were mistakenly convicted of a crime and incarcerated yourself. Would you have a problem with it then?

If I were incarcerated for a crime that I didn't commit, that would totally suck.

I don't see how being forced to work would make it suck any more, though. It actually sounds better than (a) having nothing to do all day, and (b) stuck with a whole bunch of much worse people who also have nothing to do all day.

Re: Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons

#34

Post by hugh3 » Fri, May 27, 2011, 2:53 AM UTC

ck2 wrote: post #3

How about the hundreds of thousands of prisoners in the US forced to work for pennies per hour? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_compl... If they refuse, they are written up as uncooperative and it could affect privileges, parole, etc. Makes many millions in profit for the states and federal government, even some judges own stock. Ironically it's the only labor in the US that can compete with of…

Is anyone else tired of the fact that on the internet you can't say "Hey, look at this sucky thing in Random Country X" without having someone pipe up and say "Yeah, but what about this vaguely-similar thing in the USA? Huh? Huh?"

Re: Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons

#35

Post by hugh3 » Fri, May 27, 2011, 2:54 AM UTC

ugh wrote: post #26

rdtsc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they refuse, they are written up as uncooperative and it could affect privileges, parole, etc. Very interesting, I did not know about that aspect and in the back of my mind always wondered why do all these prisoners even work when it pays that little. Why not just do nothing? Somehow I thought it was because of boredom and just something to do, be a part of something, but I guess a system that punishes the slave…

You’ve got that slavery part right. Here is the Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” This led, for example, courts to conclude that prisoners have no right to be payed minimum wage. (I honestly don’t really know wh…

I'm confused, doesn't the thirteenth amendment specifically allow involuntary servitude for convicted prisoners? It's right there in the text!

Re: Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons

#36

Post by hugh3 » Fri, May 27, 2011, 2:56 AM UTC

cliq wrote: post #27

"A former prison guard turned inmate" wait what.

What's the problem? A dude was a prison guard. Then he (presumably) committed a crime. Now he's an inmate.

Re: Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons

#37

Post by Mz » Fri, May 27, 2011, 2:57 AM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #34

ck2 wrote: post #3

How about the hundreds of thousands of prisoners in the US forced to work for pennies per hour? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_compl... If they refuse, they are written up as uncooperative and it could affect privileges, parole, etc. Makes many millions in profit for the states and federal government, even some judges own stock. Ironically it's the only labor in the US that can compete with of…

Is anyone else tired of the fact that on the internet you can't say "Hey, look at this sucky thing in Random Country X" without having someone pipe up and say "Yeah, but what about this vaguely-similar thing in the USA? Huh? Huh?"

An online friendship of mine ended in part because of the other person's habit of pouncing on any excuse to bad-mouth the US and it's government and culture like it is The Evil Empire. So count me among the tired.

Re: Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons

#38

Post by datapimp » Fri, May 27, 2011, 2:58 AM UTC

tseabrooks wrote: post #12

ck2 wrote: post #3

How about the hundreds of thousands of prisoners in the US forced to work for pennies per hour? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_compl... If they refuse, they are written up as uncooperative and it could affect privileges, parole, etc. Makes many millions in profit for the states and federal government, even some judges own stock. Ironically it's the only labor in the US that can compete with of…

Seriously? We should give a damn about this? You've got to be kidding me. Lots of money gets spent every year on inmates in the U.S. Is your complaint that you think people are being incarcerated when they've committed no crimes in order to have cheap labor? I find this notion pretty ridiculous considering you need a trial and jurors to convict someone. Is your complaint that you think the laws are being created to s…

See: mandatory sentence laws. Convictions didn't yield prison time before them at the same rate they do after.

Re: Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons

#39

Post by barrkel » Fri, May 27, 2011, 3:07 AM UTC

ugh wrote: post #31

barrkel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider your position if you were mistakenly convicted of a crime and incarcerated yourself. Would you have a problem with it then?

I accidentally sounded tough on crime. Who would have thought! I want good conditions and adequate payment, no jobs that keep prisoners where they are. Well, scratch that, I want what works. I care about reducing the crime rate and keeping prisons quite empty, not punishment. I don’t know what role forced prison labor plays there and would be willing to accept it, should it be beneficial. I just don’t know. There isn…

Prison: rehabilitation, punishment, deterrent, segregation. Punishment is largely about the victims, justice being seen to be done, etc.; it shouldn't affect crime rates in ways that don't also come under rehabilitation or deterrence. Segregation (keeping dangerous people apart from the main population) is not relevant to our discussion here, I think.

Is slave labour rehabilitating? More or less rehabilitating than productive labour? A net wash? I personally think education would be more rehabilitating. Perhaps that can be combined with labour? Probably not chain-gang type labour though.

Deterrence, I'm more skeptical of. I don't think prison time has a lot of net impact on crime. Someone on the point of committing a crime, but with their rational thinking cap on, may be evaluating their expected punishment; but that expected punishment will be moderated by their expected chances of getting caught. Obviously, if they expect to get caught, they would not rationally choose to commit a crime; therefore, very drastic changes in punishments need to be applied in order to stay significant after the criminal has taken into account the chances of being caught. (Yes, there's risk / reward calculations where very high rewards may justify taking higher risks so the expected punishment has higher effects, but I think big bank robberies etc. are not the majority of crime we need to be worried about, at least outside of white collar crime, which does need more focus.)

And that's all with the rational thinking cap on. Other crimes where rationality appears to be less evident - I'd guess most non-organized violence, for example - the punishment is very far from mind, if it's in mind at all.

I think if you're truly interested in reducing crime rates, what you have to focus on is increasing the probability of criminals getting caught and convicted, so that deterrence is credible. Reducing repeat offenders requires more focus on rehabilitation. Fiddling with the punishment in and of itself is, IMO, unlikely to have a large impact unless it's a disproportionate change, which would make it unjust.

Re: Inmates forced to farm gold online in Chinese prisons

#40

Post by barrkel » Fri, May 27, 2011, 3:08 AM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #33

barrkel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider your position if you were mistakenly convicted of a crime and incarcerated yourself. Would you have a problem with it then?

If I were incarcerated for a crime that I didn't commit, that would totally suck. I don't see how being forced to work would make it suck any more, though. It actually sounds better than (a) having nothing to do all day, and (b) stuck with a whole bunch of much worse people who also have nothing to do all day.

These are not the only two possibilities, of course.