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Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

arstechnica.com

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Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#391

Post by mgoetzke »

ra7 wrote: post #26

I think the FSD beta rollout is completely irresponsible from Tesla. Rolling out a clearly half-baked safety critical technology to its customers (yes, I know it's only a few beta testers) who are untrained is nothing but a tactic to generate hype and get more customers to buy that $10k FSD package. This is on top of Tesla being the least transparent company out there in reporting safety data or their testing methodo…

That safety 'Report' from Waymo isn't a report at all though. It is a general overview on their approach how they say they will handle it and a direction. Basically a primer for regulators and customers that don't know anything yet about it. It is extremely light on numbers over time.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#392

Post by ra7 »

xedeon wrote: post #357
rainyMammoth wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like lane steering and adaptative cruise control on my 19k$ Toyota Corolla.

Love the snarkiness. But no. The cruise control in your Toyota Corolla can't quite do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWS9jjhLYSM

But that’s not what the GP comment is talking about, no? They’re specifically talking about self driving on highways. FSD beta works on city streets. On highways you’d use auto steer and traffic aware cruise control, which is exactly same as lane keep assist and adaptive cruise control in a Toyota.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#393

Post by crocodiletears »

GeorgeTirebiter wrote: post #359
meekrohprocess wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have one question for Tesla customers who trust the company to deliver full FSD. How do you reconcile that belief with the fact that Tesla's embedded developers did not understand the extremely simple concept of write endurance? The NHTSA opened an investigation into premature HUD failures because they prevented the backup cameras from working. But the fact of the matter is, the company used a small partition of in…

Tesla is organized functionally. The Infotainment Group did the Console electronics. The SW people there did GUIs and such. So yes between the electronics folks and the app folks 'somebody' didn't consider write cycles. In other Tesla groups, such as Body Controls, and Propulsion -- I can assure you those geeks know such things and plan to deal with funky hardware. The Autopilot group is again separate. There really…

This is interesting to know, and your comment flipped a switch in my head - I'd like to know the organizational structure of a lot of companies out there. Is this information you acquired personally? Or is there a resource out there where you can refer to the structure of different companies?

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#394

Post by ilaksh »

screye wrote: post #35

I worked with a self-driving product team a couple of years ago. Tesla's approach was looked upon with suspicion and often openly mocked. Tesla's entire self-driving strategy is led by Karpathy, who while brilliant, is an under-experienced researcher with a narrow expertise in large scale 2D CNNs. Tesla (and Comma.ai ?) seem to be the only groups that find Lidar unnecessary for L5 self-driving. I completely agree wit…

I think your derogatory comments about Karparthy are ludicrous. Considering the scale of deployment, complexity of the application, and the life-and-death stakes, what he and his team have achieved so far is probably the greatest engineering achievement in the history of AI.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#395

Post by michaelt »

aidenn0 wrote: post #275
freeone3000 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significantly more than half of your ride fare on Uber goes to the driver - between 70 and 130%. Human costs are vastly the most expensive part of hailing a ride, and will remain so as long as minimum wage exists. The same argument for human drivers also applies to human dishwashers and human launderers, and yet, most of us are fine using machines for this purpose. Whether or not this will cause financial disaster fo…

But what fraction of the money that goes to the driver is spent on depreciation and maintenance?

In my country, the government's "generous, all things considered" cost of operating a private car* is 45p per mile - which covers not just fuel, but also depreciation, insurance and suchlike.

Meanwhile, a 12-minute, 4 mile Uber journey would cost me £2.43/mile

Of course, the big unknown here is one of driver utilisation: How many miles does the driver drive to pick me up, and how many minutes are they waiting for the next ride to come in?

* Well, it was considered generous the last time I asked a car owner about it. I'm sure a Lamborghini costs more.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#396

Post by mgoetzke »

hjnilsson wrote: post #269
sorenjan wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it's legal. How can it be allowed to send out uncertified software to cars on public roads? Aren't there safety standards that need to be met? I thought that safety critical products where better regulated than this.

In Europe, most of the Tesla features are disabled because they were deemed hazardous. Only lane assist and adaptive cruise control is enabled. The others are severely limited or disabled (Summon etc.)

And they make driving with the remainder of AP extremely unsafe in the EU sadly. For example they limit the angle of turn, meaning the cars cannot drive safely around a lot of non-highway road corners without drifting into oncoming lane (upon which the car brakes and beeps due to another feature called lane assist). Admittedly the car could slow down before the curve, but that would get you into trouble with cars from behind not expecting you to slow down for these kinds of curves.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#397

Post by ganafagol »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #309
ra7 wrote: post #26

I think the FSD beta rollout is completely irresponsible from Tesla. Rolling out a clearly half-baked safety critical technology to its customers (yes, I know it's only a few beta testers) who are untrained is nothing but a tactic to generate hype and get more customers to buy that $10k FSD package. This is on top of Tesla being the least transparent company out there in reporting safety data or their testing methodo…

What I wonder is would countries like China be able to reach FSD faster since they would possibly be less ethically bound? And similarly with other tech which otherwise would be limited ethically?

Having an ethical framework that differs from yours is not the same as the absence of ethics.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#398

Post by jfoster »

sudosysgen wrote: post #356
jfoster wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fairly easy to dismiss that argument; the cameras would not be difficult to replace if they are the limiting factor. Cameras are cheap.

The human eye has capabilites that you'd need a camera more expensive than a LiDAR by a good bit too replicate. No rolling shutter, very low delay, continuous signal processing instead of per-frame, maximum resolution around ~70MP eq. in the center, f/2.8 aperture at a full-frame image size, servo driven active rangefinding, continuous cleaning, etc... A camera with those features would be around 3000-15000$, and you…

You don't need human eye equivalents. Human eyes are probably not the ideal cameras for driving.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#399

Post by xedeon »

ra7 wrote: post #392
xedeon wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love the snarkiness. But no. The cruise control in your Toyota Corolla can't quite do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWS9jjhLYSM

But that’s not what the GP comment is talking about, no? They’re specifically talking about self driving on highways. FSD beta works on city streets. On highways you’d use auto steer and traffic aware cruise control, which is exactly same as lane keep assist and adaptive cruise control in a Toyota.

Can the Toyota Safety Sense system perform an automatic lane change on the highway? I don't think it can. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#400

Post by crocodiletears »

quicklime wrote: post #206
totalZero wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That can be forgivable in some situations, but Move Fast And Break Customers? Not so much.

It's even worse to move customers fast and break innocent bystanders.

Nah, not as bad. They aren't a source of revenue. Now if the bystander also owned a Tesla…
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