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18.7 Million Americans Vaccinated

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Re: 18.7 Million Americans Vaccinated

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You could encourage them to keep in mind that by refusing to get vaccinated, they're likely going to be living the rest of their life under threat of contracting COVID. I think you might be blind to how a person who values freedom more than safety, and who sees more danger to free civilization than to public health in this affair, would receive this threat. It would be an utterly awful thing to say.

I agree that my understanding of that mindset is limited to the rationality I can make of it, but I wouldn't consider that a threat. It's the reality that we exist within, as this virus only really "cares" about replicating itself. I personally don't comprehend how someone can extrapolate receiving a vaccination to a loss of freedom, but I'm fortunate that I don't really have to. Best of luck and safety to you and yo…

Thanks, same to you. Don’t count on any “return to normalcy” though, at this point the only way out is through, and the other side is gonna look a lot different.

Re: 18.7 Million Americans Vaccinated

#182
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You could encourage them to keep in mind that by refusing to get vaccinated, they're likely going to be living the rest of their life under threat of contracting COVID. I think you might be blind to how a person who values freedom more than safety, and who sees more danger to free civilization than to public health in this affair, would receive this threat. It would be an utterly awful thing to say.

Let’s grant that one thinks that the various COVID restrictions are a danger to free civilization. How exactly does this translate to getting a vaccine being a danger to free civilization?

It’s all wrapped up in the same context. Wear the mask, get the vaccine, trust the science, and we will un-person you if you question any of it.

The last part is the problem!

Re: 18.7 Million Americans Vaccinated

#183
post #3

At what number can we stop wearing masks, stop social distancing, start dining in, etc.? That's the number I care about. Because until somebody influential picks that number, we'll just keep masking and social distancing until the end of time.

We'll unlikely reach said number because over 50% of the population of the us is not interested in a vaccine because they do not view covid-19 as a disease much more risky than the flu.

Facing this reality, the policy will probably be once everyone who wants it has had a chance to get it, things will or should move towards normal.

Re: 18.7 Million Americans Vaccinated

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure how much of it is fear of the MRNA vaccine itself, and how much is an objection to the creepy fascist context. Probably a lot of both, and maybe yes a bit too much of the former. But in any case their reply is, “We would rather take the risk.” If they get sick and die like your grandma (condolences), they will have done so at least partially by choice, a choice which they have damn well earned by their m…

> I’m not sure how much of it is fear of the MRNA vaccine itself, and how much is an objection to the creepy fascist context. Probably a lot of both, and maybe yes a bit too much of the former. I don't think the two concerns are all that neatly separable. I find it impossible not to notice the relentless campaign to put forth _vaccinating everyone with an experimental jab_ as the only legitimate escape from indefinit…

> I don't think the two concerns are all that neatly separable. I find it impossible not to notice the relentless campaign to put forth _vaccinating everyone with an experimental jab_ as the only legitimate escape from indefinite lockdowns and distancing.

Who said that?

There are quite a few ways out: we can reach a state of herd immunity (as a practical matter, this would mean that going back to normal would result in a low enough rate of serious infections as to not be a big deal), we could find an effective, practical treatment or prophylactic, or we could vaccinate everyone. Or a combination.

Many things are wrong with the process, but, right now, all credible models suggest that we are nowhere near herd immunity. We have two vaccines that, in proper RCTs, appear very effect. We have a third vaccine that had an incompetently run RCT and appeared somewhat effective.

As for other treatments, we have some things that help a little. There’s ivermectin, which (if you read Derek Lowe’s blog, for example), seems dubious. It’s cheap and safe, but the dosage that works in vitro is impractical in vivo. The studies saying it’s effective are, in my opinion, dubious. Vitamin D (injected) looked good in a tiny study. Fluvoxamine looked good in a well run but very small study. HCQ does not appear effective. Convalescent plasma looks so-so. The mABs look less effective than hoped, and they don’t really scale well enough to use for everyone who gets exposed. Remdesivir seems to be barely effective.

We should absolutely run serious, expedited trials of everything credible. The fact that we haven’t set up a national clinical trial system for this is an embarrassment.

But please check your assumptions. Under the previous administration, the federal government did not impose significant restrictions on your freedoms (even your freedom to go around in indoor public spaces without a mask). The government did not do much of anything useful. To the contrary, the government gave premature EUAs to untested treatments that actively interfered with the private sector’s ability to run trials. The current restrictions have been largely imposed by the states, democrat and republican, whose governments have been some combination of ill-equipped to do anything else and insufficiently creative to come up with anything better. There is no “they” setting up a campaign to convince people that the new vaccines are the only way out. Heck, there isn’t even a “they” doing a good job of jabbing people at all — note the bizarre contrast between the number of doses shipped, the number administered, and the medical providers who have run out of doses.

If you want to look at a country with an organized vaccine campaign, try Israel. If you want to look at countries that are managing COVID effectively with minimal invasion of peoples’ freedom, look at Taiwan, New Zealand, and China. (China has taken extremely harsh measures, and their administration is not dumb. Taiwan’s measures are not particularly harsh. All of these countries have serious travel restrictions, which the US states cannot implement on their own.)

Re: 18.7 Million Americans Vaccinated

#185
post #3

At what number can we stop wearing masks, stop social distancing, start dining in, etc.? That's the number I care about. Because until somebody influential picks that number, we'll just keep masking and social distancing until the end of time.

We'll unlikely reach said number because over 50% of the population of the us is not interested in a vaccine because they do not view covid-19 as a disease much more risky than the flu. Facing this reality, the policy will probably be once everyone who wants it has had a chance to get it, things will or should move towards normal.

Source?

Re: 18.7 Million Americans Vaccinated

#186
post #9

Can someone help me understand the difference between this and other vaccines? From what I know, the COVID-19 vaccine is only effective in reducing symptoms for those who get inoculated. Is it accurate to say this vaccine does not prevent infection or help develop an immunity? I just do not understand how vaccines work. Would love a (peer-reviewed) source or sources I could read to brush up. This is not a political o…

Your body has two types of immune response, one called an innate immunity, which basically is programmed to attack certain types of pathogens at birth, and another an adaptive or acquired immunity. Vaccines target the adaptive immunity. If we only had an innate immunity, viruses and other pathogens would learn to bypass it by hiding or disguising themselves in various ways. In order to counter this, our bodies consta…

Thank you - this is what I was hoping for!

> adaptive vs innate

This I did not know - so basically there's a class of pathogens we have protections for at birth, and others we have to learn by exposure.

Antigens act as metadata of sorts from which our immune system can use to develop response mechanisms, do these antigens mean "permanent upgrade," in terms of our immune system recognizing it? (Yes, memory cells - cool!)

Just ordered a copy of the recommended book from my local library, thank you for the February reading list.

Re: 18.7 Million Americans Vaccinated

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm visualizing that day, and will welcome it Are you into apocalypses? There's the British quick-spreading strain, and there are the Brazilian and South African variants that the vaccine does not offer good protection against. I predict that COVID will be like Picardy Fever, not like the Spanish Flu - there will be outbreaks every few years here and there.

> there's strains And? The world doesn't end when new strains of the cold or the flu happen. Every year. As it's happened for as long as there have been humans. Humans have "eradicated"... Polio? Because it's rather serious? What else have we eradicated? COVID is here to stay.

Global eradication of diseases is very hard, because there are lots of areas that don’t have much money or government capacity to dedicate to disease control. Developed countries have brought quite a few diseases to near-extinction within their borders; tuberculosis is the obvious comparison, given the similarity in symptoms, transmissibility, and vaccine efficacy.

Re: 18.7 Million Americans Vaccinated

#189
post #3

At what number can we stop wearing masks, stop social distancing, start dining in, etc.? That's the number I care about. Because until somebody influential picks that number, we'll just keep masking and social distancing until the end of time.

By Springtime (in 45-60 days) we'll be at the one year mark, fatigued by masks, rules, shutdowns, and authoritarians, in general. The news will be tedious about how many are being vaccinated (it will be a lot) -- and, the weather will turn warmer. Then, many/most will say _fuck it_, I'm taking my life back. I'm visualizing that day, and will welcome it.

I said "fuck it, I'm taking my life back" months ago. And then I realized how little that is possible.

How are you going to protest your way into a concert that isn't performing?

How are you going to demand your way into a university that isn't teaching?

How are you going to riot your way into a Disneyland that isn't running?

How are you going to force your way into a sports stadium that isn't playing?

How are you going to disobey your way onto a cruise ship that isn't sailing?

We are much more at the whim of our authoritarian overlords destroying everything joyful in life than we ever realized. We are no longer ever allowed to make personal risk management decisions.

Re: 18.7 Million Americans Vaccinated

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. My grandfather died early in the pandemic (May). He tested positive for a period of three weeks and then tested negative a few times. He started feeling better and we were hopeful, but the damage was too great and his heart failed a few weeks later. I really just can't put my feelings into words. He was in a physical rehab facility after surgery. When the pandemic hit, visitation was forbidden. Turns out m…

Thank you for sharing, really, but understand that I could also slip into blind hatred over what I see as the suffering you and your culture have caused (not least being caregivers so scared by the hyped-up risk to younger and healthier people that they abandoned patients?!) but that would not be useful. As the minority opinion I’m also more likely to get flagged or banned, and I do use that handicap as a crutch some…

I feel like your point is probably important somehow. Could you make it with more sensitivity and less indignant contrarianism? Remember that you're replying to someone who has just lost a loved one!
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