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Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

arstechnica.com

191–200 of 581 posts

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#191
post #35

I worked with a self-driving product team a couple of years ago. Tesla's approach was looked upon with suspicion and often openly mocked. Tesla's entire self-driving strategy is led by Karpathy, who while brilliant, is an under-experienced researcher with a narrow expertise in large scale 2D CNNs. Tesla (and Comma.ai ?) seem to be the only groups that find Lidar unnecessary for L5 self-driving. I completely agree wit…

I think you hit the nail on the head. There is no such thing as "sort of self driving". It's either completely autonomous or I'm going to have to be paying some attention and I might as well be doing all of the driving at that point.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#192

Not buying the storyline. Certainly Tesla will have to keep upgrading its systems to achieve true FSD. They could even decide that LIDAR has become cheap enough to use anyway. What they have is cars on the road collecting data. They'll have to collect new data and develop new algorithms on that data but that path is not excluded from them. > "It is a misconception that you can just keep developing a driver assistance…

The proposition that is being discussed is not whether Tesla as a company will get to autonomous driving, it’s whether Tesla’s current suite of sensors and its “HW 3” inference engine will get there. Keep in mind, Tesla has taken thousands of dollars from customers with the promise that they will deliver them “full self driving” in the near future (or actually in the past, as it was promised by 2018). If Tesla revise…

I agree. The entire Tesla gamble really hinges on whether the HW3 + current sensor suite is sufficient for them to achieve a safe enough degree of autonomy. It's about as minimal as it gets from the hardware front, and is entirely dependent on the machine learning side to evolve rapidly along with rapid software update deployments.

I feels there's a broad misconception across many of these types of discussions, where people assume that just because Tesla has not chosen to widely deploy LIDAR across their vehicle fleet, that they do not understand it's benefits nor value them. This is entirely false. For several years now, Tesla has driven test vehicles with very high end Lidar units to basically generate "ground truth" understanding of the world that can be then used to test and improve their camera-only FSD inference. They heavily relied upon it to build ML models to generate depth maps across frames, and that capability is already widely deployed via Autopilot (poor man's FSD). That it works in itself is somewhat shocking to me.

Lastly, if there's any indication of a mea culpa coming from Musk on this front, those ideas should be easily put to rest. Recent FSD footage shows rapid and drastic improvements to the capabilities of the FSD-beta system, and Musk himself is still repeatedly bellowing about how his personal vehicle with the latest software is able to handle more and more challenging scenarios. If anything, Tesla is doubling down, and expects to win. Given their history, if I was a competitor, I would be troubled at least.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#193
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This matches my experience of how Tesla is viewed in the autonomous car industry. No-one thinks they are a serious contender when it comes to a driverless vehicle (and their business model basically doesn't match with the technology either: every other company is basically going to operate a taxi service because there's far more value to be captured and it can help pay for the hardware making driverless possible)

it's interesting how optimistic long term visions conflict - if you really think autonomous cabs will become widespread then by implication you are also saying that car sales will be drastically lower. Tough to be serious betting on both. The math of "you'll pay more for the car but the car will go out and make money for you as a robotic Uber" sounds like a pyramid scheme to me; if too many people do it, it can no lo…

Frankly, it always sounded like a solution looking for a problem for me. Transportation is like electricity, it’s all about peak demand.

I’m writing this at midnight on a Sunday... there’s no demand for transportation. Come 7-930AM, demand is 1000x more. There’s no self driving taxi that makes sense as car replacement. We already have busses, which are already really cheap and can get cheaper if cars are too expensive to buy.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#194
Watching this video of regular folk (not tech journalists or other "reviewers", or paid PR) riding in FSD Waymo has done a lot to reduce my "but it'll never happen" feeling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAZ6tJSj9T4

It may very well be that future FSD modes will require highly detailed maps, manual curation, limited areas where things can work, but even that would be valuable. e.g. if self driving trucks only work on long haul highway-only, that's still a win. If FSD taxis are mostly rolled out in medium to big cities in the beginning, it's still be a win.

Trying to boil the ocean all at once, and launching an enduser consumer FSD program that can handle wherever the driver takes it, may be the wrong way to do it, top-down instead of bottom up. Start with small geographic areas, and expand as you go.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#195
post #172
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of trusting this anecdote, why don’t you jump over to YouTube and search for “Tesla FSD” to see what it really looks like? Lots of very instructive videos available from people on the beta program.

Exactly. There's real world video footage showing the vehicle behavior that includes Tesla animations showing the vehicle's current understanding of the environment. It's rather cheap to take trivial shots at Tesla (no matter how bad their product might be) while comparing it to 23 year old understanding of human-machine automation in an entirely different context such as aviation. Quite unfortunate you're downvoted,…

Can the footage be trusted? From my understanding Tesla has only rolled this out to a small number of users, browsing the YT search results you’ve provided I see that almost all the results are Tesla super fan accounts.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to disregard this until you see an objective assessment in the field.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, getting downvoted for stating this fact. I can't believe the anti-Musk bias here on HN. You would think HN would actually appreciate one of the more innovative entrepreneurs on the planet.

I think it might be due to a form of jealousy. Sad to see HN so unenthusiastic about a guy who is probably the most amazing entrepreneur of our time. It's not that he hasn't invited a little bit of controversy (eg. comments about the diver, covid, etc.) but I think those are inconsequential when it comes to HN's attitude toward him.

Musk's immature and petulant behaviour is an embarrassment to entrepreneurs.

I for one am not remotely jealous of him but disappointed that others think his behaviour should be emulated or worshipped just because he has been successful.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#197
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RDJ’s portrayal of Iron Man is partially based off Elon Musk, not the other way around. Edit: Since I’m being downvoted, here you go, today you learned: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/true-story-elon-musk-robert-d...

and Larry Ellison, Elon Musk was still too young on the scene in 2008, and not the celebrity he is today.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/true-story-elon-musk-robert-d...

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#198
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FSD rollout is purely driven by Elon’s ego. He’s addicted to fame and power, and that comes from image he created of himself being an Iron Man. I’m pretty sure he got to a point where he believes in it, and thinks he’s invincible and can solve any problem, because he’s so much smarter than everyone. Stock bubble making wealthiest man only helped to solidify that.

I don't think FSD rollout is the central goal. The goal is to build hype and thus market cap that Tesla can use to build factories. Ten years ago, Tesla had no factories (at high capacity). They've had absolutely ridiculous velocity since then precisely because of their ridiculous valuation. Even if this FSD thing doesn't work out, it might have been necessary for Tesla to get this far. If Tesla's stock crashes, they…

Conspiracy level nonsense here. Elon tried to take Tesla private. He himself didn't want raise money on higher evaluation. He himself multiple times said they don't deserve the high stock.

He has been an optimist on this technology of a long time and has made that argument for a long time.

The claim that the FSD testing is to boost the stock price is truly bizard, specially because there is very little evidence of any correlation between FSD and stock price.

Go look at the Wallstreet models, most of them don't have large considerations income from FSD. If you look at FSD testers, their videos don't have millions of views.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#199
post #126
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lidar would have discovered that truck immediately. Is is confirmed that this Tesla was using self-driving?

From the article: - autopilot was not engaged, only cruise control - the anti-collision applied brakes but not soon enough - the driver walked away without a scratch

How do you differentiate between autopilot and cruise control in Tesla case? I assume by lane keeping engaged?

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, getting downvoted for stating this fact. I can't believe the anti-Musk bias here on HN. You would think HN would actually appreciate one of the more innovative entrepreneurs on the planet.

I think it might be due to a form of jealousy. Sad to see HN so unenthusiastic about a guy who is probably the most amazing entrepreneur of our time. It's not that he hasn't invited a little bit of controversy (eg. comments about the diver, covid, etc.) but I think those are inconsequential when it comes to HN's attitude toward him.

The achievement of the Tesla as an electric car are inspiring and incredible.

The issue people take is the reckless approach to selling nonexistent or immature tech that by its nature puts human life at risk. It is possible to both respect and disagree.

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