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I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

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Re: I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

#61
Same. I've very wary of investing or getting involved with any company that has an open source strategy. I worked for one (Sendmail) and it did not go well. We talked about how it's hard to compete when your number one competitor is your own software for $0. If you look at successful public companies with open source, they are all fairly small successes compared to their public closed source peers.

When I worked at reddit, we open sourced our code. It didn't gain us much. We got a few contributions, and we also got a few competitors. The biggest benefit was being able to show people the code when they suspected shenanigans.

At Netflix our ethos was "if it's involved in infrastructure, open source it, if it's related to movies, keep it closed." That actually worked pretty well. But the open source code was difficult to use unless you invested in the entire ecosystem. The main benefit was recruiting.

For my own company, I try to support open source by donating to the people who make it.

Re: I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

#62
The essential problem is gatekeeping. Any commercial business uses money as a means of getkeeping what it uses (buys). This works well to reduce and so control the purchases of chairs, desks, external consultancies and proprietary software.

We all know the horrors and pain of trying to raise a PO to get a license for a really useful / necessary piece of software.

I fundamentally guarantee that if React needed a 0.01 cent license for every internal and external installation it would have four users globally.

FOSS short circuits this gatekeeping function - and it is only popular because it is hard to keep track of and easy to load up npm and grab 900 libraries.

Imagine there was a FOSS plug-in everyone used, call it mothership that on every install (and indeed invocation) it routed back a simple packet to say "i am alive and used on this machine in this domain in this company" (let's call it a common piece of config like git email config)

Immediately every legal department would soil their pants and internal software development would grind to a halt - or FOSS developers would be able to charge decent value for their work - or some ecosystem of foss-aggregators would spring up providing licensed, limited installs and support and legal protection.

Personally I am in favour of the last option - for each product a series of (local) companies could club together and provide support for each other's code bases, (if you use my react-foobar I will license company X to indemnify you - sort of approved vendors schemes)

I struggle to see many better ways

Edit:

Andressen was slightly wrong - FOSS is going to eat the world. And as such it's production will be a public good - paid for out of taxpayer money and directed as such - either as a utility through regulation or as science through funding only the brightest.

And the big question remains - if we could see the whole stack easily, and if it all was priced at the minimum wage for every developer in the stack how much would it be?

Would anyone pay it? Or worse, would they realise they did not need all those in-house developers anymore as they are all running "libBusiness.py" and it all kind of fits together.

Or as is more likely - will we see lots of companies like redhat, that produce a "bank/airline/retailer in a box" - and the internal teams are focused on that 5% of USP?

I am not sure I understand that world - but I also do not think I currently could select correctly all the FOSS packages needed to build that stack that can just run a business.

Trust me it does not look like the openERP style stacks. at all.

Re: I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

#63
Wow. It looks like this man has no idea what the free software spirit is. I mean, he definitely hasn't, as he's talking about "exit value“. Still, he's writing that with HTML, using SSL and TCP, on a PHP website probably running on Nginx or Apache on a Linux server with a postgresql database... Opensource is what allows him to talk to people or even create his business he is so proud of that he gives advices to everybody, yet he encourages everyone to not join the game. If open source has some problem, it's certainly because of people like him.

Re: I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

#64
post #39

> If you are running a commercial business on top of your open-source solution, it is paramount that you own the product's full IP. Why is it "paramount"? While I have seen that behaviour, there are also several commercial businesses in my corner of the 'net based on open source solutions that don't make an effort to own the full IP and they are doing OK. I think there's some unstated assumption here, anyone care to…

I think the implicit assumption is that you are doing the majority of the development, and you want to make money from licensing, and you want to be the only one making money from your product. So basically, the plan is to make money exactly like a proprietary software company would make money, except that you make the product open source for marketing.

I never understood why people thought that was a good idea. People like Open Source because they don't want to depend on a single vendor, and yet these companies want to be the only vendor of their Open Source solution. It doesn't make sense.

Re: I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

#65
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone using BSD and Apache licenses - so any changes or improvements they make aren't contributed back to the source repo.

Have a look at PostgreSQL, SQLite, LLVM, Clang ... all these are projects that get a lot of support from proprietary software vendors. I'm pretty sure that the companies contribute to these projects because of the liberal license, not in spite of it. I think a big fallacy with regard to the GPL is that companies don't contribute to open source because the license forces them to. Companies contribute to open source be…

Counter argument: the Linux kernel. (Since we are mentioning open source projects with the highest profile on earth, I don't think neither of the examples are fair)

Re: I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

#66

If engineers are the most important resource, I think being a company known for open source might act as an inbound sales for attracting top talent, too (see: Google, RedHat, Mozilla). For engineers, it makes sense to work for companies that do have FOSS projects because they can always point to their corpus of work when switching between jobs as proof of their worth. Most engineers who realise this don't ever want t…

Microsoft acquired GitHub for $7.5 billion. How much is GitLab worth?

How much money has Microsoft made selling Windows vs Linus off Linux?

How much money does Apple make off iThings?

Re: I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

#67
post #65
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a look at PostgreSQL, SQLite, LLVM, Clang ... all these are projects that get a lot of support from proprietary software vendors. I'm pretty sure that the companies contribute to these projects because of the liberal license, not in spite of it. I think a big fallacy with regard to the GPL is that companies don't contribute to open source because the license forces them to. Companies contribute to open source be…

Counter argument: the Linux kernel. (Since we are mentioning open source projects with the highest profile on earth, I don't think neither of the examples are fair)

I agree, the Linux kernel is one of the examples where the GPL really works, because a lot of companies really need it for their products, and they need to distribute it, and there are very few alternatives.

Re: I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

#68

Wow. It looks like this man has no idea what the free software spirit is. I mean, he definitely hasn't, as he's talking about "exit value“. Still, he's writing that with HTML, using SSL and TCP, on a PHP website probably running on Nginx or Apache on a Linux server with a postgresql database... Opensource is what allows him to talk to people or even create his business he is so proud of that he gives advices to every…

The author only shares his personal opinion on whether he would invest money in FOSS. He is not advocating that FOSS serves no purpose.

Re: I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

#69
post #60
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A community of contributors backed by a diverse set of companies has to be seeded by an MVP. Where would that MVP come from? For complex software it's either an internal project spun out from a unicorn or a labor of love from a gentleman hacker. These are pretty limited routes; it's much easier to start an open source startup with the caveat that the community will probably never emerge later because the startup will…

The term "open source" has a well-known definition, and the "novel licenses", like Mongo's, do not match it. They are more like the "source available" licenses, as practiced by MS in 1990s, and by IBM, much earlier.

There are several definitions for Open Source that come from foundations and other groups, which push their own beliefs and standards. Opensource.org, for example, pushes their own definition that excludes all those who do not use the perferred license!

However, dictionaries that mirror collective understandings, as used by millions of people, tell a different story. According to OxfordLanguages, Open Source denotes, "software for which the original source code is made freely available and may be redistributed and modified." If you look at Dictionary.com. you will see that Open-Source is defined as "pertaining to or denoting a product or system whose origins, formula, design, etc., are freely accessible to the public."

So, no, open source doesn't have a single definition, except to groups who are pushing their own definitions.

Re: I wouldn't invest in open-source companies, even though I ran one

#70
The ratio of failed OS businesses to successful ones is worse than in prop-tech; revenue kicks in much later, business model pivots are hampered by community resistance, and licensing issues leave OS businesses vulnerable throughout their lifetime. Instead, why not do what traditional businesses are doing, sell a product, and simply charge for the value it provides?

Why not? Because when your project gets so big that lots of people rely on it, it would be better for the world to remove the private property restrictions, allowing fixes and innovations to come from anywhere and be distributed as widely as possible.

The question should be asked the other way: why not make it open source?

You see, all the objections here come from a capitalist mindset, which is based on private ownership and competition. “I built it so I own it.” That is how we ended up with a feudal society online, where conservatives are complaining they’re being silenced, where bulk collection of everyone’s info is possible in one place, where rents are being extracted from the ecosystem.

The alternative is collaboration with no private ownership of the platform. (Note that this is NOT socialism.)

Linus Torvalds launched Linux, Tim Berners launched the Web, Vitalik launched Ethereum, but they don’t “own it”. And it is precisely because there is no private ownership of the whole platform, that they have led to an explosion of wealth and utility for the entire world.

“Business models are incompatible with open source”. Well, sure. Rentseeking behavior gets harder when the platform is permissionless. But what has led to more value for the world:

AOL or the Web?

Internet Explorer or Chromium?

Britannica or Wikipedia?

Windows or Linux, BSD (including MacOS and Android)

Alchemy or Science?

This is a mindset issue in our culture. In current society the vast majority of people are living paycheck to paycheck, so they would love to escape this precarious situation. They take jobs because they pay, not so much because they like the project. When they do get financially independent, they keep going and going, trying to make more money and become a capitalist. And we all support these few people who “escaped and made it” by ensuring that their intellectual private property rights are enforced and their business models are enabled in our society (RIAA, MPAA, etc). In a society where everyone has UBI, people would work 20% of their time on stuff they like - science, open source, religion, hobbies, raising children etc. And projects would attract people because they are awesome and useful to many people, and because they can contribute something that others need.

Each small contribution to the gift economy costs very little, and there is no limit on the remixing and reusing of effective solutions. Private property is all about adding more friction to this permissionless model and excluding the rest of the world from using a resource and building on others’ discoveries. When Isaac Newton said “if I saw further, it’s because I stood on the shoulders of giants” he didn’t rent those shoulders. He wasn’t sued an a SWAT team didn’t break down his door. Isaac Newton wasn’t in pharma.

If I sound like some kind of communist, liste to the venture CAPITALISTS who fund the future and see where things are doing. For example read https://worldaftercapital.org by venture capitalist Albert Wenger general partner of Union Square Ventures to understand where we are headed as a society. And read their latest 3.0 thesis.

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