How Homogeneous Is Japan? • Hacker News Board

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#191

Post by BrandoElFollito » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #113

coldtea wrote: post #94

I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. Counter-examples don't refute a general observation. They can only refute an absolute statement. But when it comes to actual numbers and breakdowns (which would put a general observation into…

> I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. It depends on what one looks at. The U.S.A., culturally, most famously treats race as if it be an ethnicity. As such, in their perspective what they call “African-American" and “European-Am…

I was surprised when I learned that this US ethnicity is a self-defined status. This means that me, a blond blue eyed man (and accessorily French) could define myself as Afro-American in the US.

His comme this is not wildly used in cases where it gives you an advantage? (such as positive discrimination when entering a university, or for grants,...)

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#192

Post by parineum » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 9:21 PM UTC

vladvasiliu wrote: post #29

627467 wrote: post #2

Racial stats and forms asking about it are an underestimated force that perpetuates systemic racism, increases segregation, discrimination and undermines social cohesiveness. Change my mind.

Here in France there is no such thing as "race" or "color" or "ethnicity" from the State's point of view. The census doesn't ask anything related to race / color / ethnicity. As far as the state is concerned, you're either a French citizen or a foreigner. However, during 2020, there were a few cases of alleged [0] police brutality towards "minorities". This has opened a wider debate over the place of minorities in th…

> In practical terms, how can you acknowledge that "black people are discriminated against if there are no black people"?

Think about how you would practically go about preventing discrimination against a group of people. I don't think any solutions require the acknowledgment that the group exists, officially. Discrimination can happen on a number of lines that are not in whatever survey the state creates so any effective solution has to address the tendency toward discrimination of all sorts. In the US, we don't collect information (officially) on sexual orientation or religion yet we still take steps to protect people from discrimination on those avenues despite having no metrics.

I think collecting that data has a danger of creating a list of officially recognized groups which can be discriminated against (at the expense of those not tracked). This happens in the US with sexual orientation because it has not been in the list of things that it's illegal to discriminate against innthe past. Instead of just making discrimination illegal, it's only illegal to discriminate by race, religion or gender. If, instead, it were just illegal to discriminate, that wouldn't be an issue.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#193

Post by Blikkentrekker » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

parineum wrote: post #192

vladvasiliu wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in France there is no such thing as "race" or "color" or "ethnicity" from the State's point of view. The census doesn't ask anything related to race / color / ethnicity. As far as the state is concerned, you're either a French citizen or a foreigner. However, during 2020, there were a few cases of alleged [0] police brutality towards "minorities". This has opened a wider debate over the place of minorities in th…

> In practical terms, how can you acknowledge that "black people are discriminated against if there are no black people"? Think about how you would practically go about preventing discrimination against a group of people. I don't think any solutions require the acknowledgment that the group exists, officially. Discrimination can happen on a number of lines that are not in whatever survey the state creates so any effe…

> yet we still take steps to protect people from discrimination on those avenues despite having no metrics.

The issue is that the U.S.A. knows at-will employment to begin with where a man might be fired or hired for rather arbitrary reasons.

In many countries, the onus is on employers to justify their reasons to make financial sense.

Pertaining to Japan, I once had a discussion with someone from the U.S.A. who learned that sexual orientation is not a “protected class” in Japan, and he had assumed that that meant that one's employ could be terminated over one's sexual orientation. Japan, as it stands, is notorious for it's nigh impossibility to fire an employee for about any reason other than willful, dishonorable, illegal conduct. Even an employee that is not being sufficiently productive in Japan will be hard to dismiss if the court find that he still tries and puts in enough effort, but simply finds it hard to manage. — personal reasons, such as sexual orientation or anything one does at home is completely off the table, of course, and thus in no want of any special protection.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#194

Post by kazinator » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #167

kazinator wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as if it be an ethnicity I see what you did there, homie; but next time make it efnicity. :) > And, to note, the only Polishman I have ever had a good conversation with was quite dark skinned, but nevertheless Polish was his native language. One of the Roma people, possibly.

> I see what you did there, homie; but next time make it efnicity. :) I do not see what I did there at all. Might you explain? > One of the Roma people, possibly. Not at all. Both his parents were immigrants from an African country; I do not know which.

Ah, well that's kind of worth mentioning, I would think; that person was Polish in nationality only, not actually of Polish descent yet somehow dark-skinned. :)

What I mean regarding "as if it be ..." is not standard English grammar. Use of the "be" form of the verb (that is not the subjunctive be) without inflecting for tense or person is featured in African-American Vernacular English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Vernacular_En...

(An example like "I request that everyone be quiet" is standard; that's standard grammar, using the subjunctive mood of "to be").

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#195

Post by rtsil » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

brmgb wrote: post #154

jeromegv wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If France is so blind to ethnicity, would you say that your experience as a Frenchman is the same regardless of the colour of your skin? Access to employment, interaction with police, visibility in medias, access to politic circles etc. What you describe is the French dream but is that somewhat a reality?

> would you say that your experience as a Frenchman is the same regardless of the colour of your skin? You are committing the American mistake of thinking that people sharing a skin colour also share a culture. There will be a tremendous amount of cultural difference between a black Senegalese who is a first generation immigrant and someone from the Reunion whose great grand parents were already all French citizens.…

> There will be a tremendous amount of cultural difference between a black Senegalese who is a first generation immigrant and someone from the Reunion whose great grand parents were already all French citizens.

To which I will also add that there can be great cultural, social and/or economic differences between two first-generation black immigrants from two different african countries, or even from the same country, that it does not make real sense to lump them under the same category.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#196

Post by Blikkentrekker » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #194

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see what you did there, homie; but next time make it efnicity. :) I do not see what I did there at all. Might you explain? > One of the Roma people, possibly. Not at all. Both his parents were immigrants from an African country; I do not know which.

Ah, well that's kind of worth mentioning, I would think; that person was Polish in nationality only, not actually of Polish descent yet somehow dark-skinned. :) What I mean regarding "as if it be ..." is not standard English grammar. Use of the "be" form of the verb (that is not the subjunctive be) without inflecting for tense or person is featured in African-American Vernacular English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki…

> What I mean regarding "as if it be ..." is not standard English grammar. Use of the "be" form of the verb (that is not the subjunctive be) without inflecting for tense or person is featured in African-American Vernacular English.

But it is the subjunctive.

“as if” classically demands the subjunctive the mood in it's subordinate clause, if it __be__ used as an irrealis.

I realize well of course that in vernacular English the subjunctive mood has been in decline for the past centuries, so it might not be so commonly used as such any more in spoken English.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22As+if+it+be%22

Though, I am given some pause by that the sixth citation here is the King James Version; perhaps it has been more in decline than I had thought.

Nevertheless, I am not some bourgeois peasant. If it be good enough for the K.J.V., then it is good enough for me.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#197

Post by rayiner » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

_ezkx wrote: post #178

rayiner wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rank-and-file conservative doesn’t articulate it in those terms, obviously. But my family in Oregon doesn’t like the federal government ruling them from 3,000 miles away for concrete reasons. (In their case it’s long-standing family bitterness at the government seizing their homestead to build the pacific coast highway.) Those same social and political phenomena are present the world over, and are the reason fed…

That's all fine. But I don't think social science research supports the idea that rank-and-file (or self-identified, if you prefer) conservatives in the US are actually motivated by a devotion to, say, Federalism (as opposed to, say, hegemonic masculinity, white nativism, etc). > The Buckley type is just articulating and explaining concrete social phenomena on the ground. "Explaining", or "dressing up"? You're speaki…

> conservatives in the US are actually motivated by a devotion to, say, Federalism

"Federalism?" No, that's an abstract political construct. But ask them how they feel about folks in Washington D.C. deciding what goes in the school curriculum in Sibley, Iowa.

> That's all fine. But I don't think social science research supports the idea that rank-and-file (or self-identified, if you prefer) conservatives in the US are actually motivated by a devotion to, say, Federalism (as opposed to, say, hegemonic masculinity, white nativism, etc).

There is newer social science research suggesting that tests used to measure for attitudes such as "white nativism" (e.g. racial resentment tests) instead measure for conservative beliefs. Thus, the results don't change if you change the survey questions to ask about white people or other groups instead: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/renos/files/carneyenos.pdf (p. 17) ("Three important features are prominent in this figure: First, conservatives respondents (white boxes) show more resentment toward all groups than do liberals (gray boxes). Second, for conservatives, the distribution of resentment is nearly identical when asked about a white and Black target group to the distribution when asked about any alternate group, except with a slightly lower median.").

Questions purporting to measure "racial resentment" often presuppose a larger societal or government role for addressing racial inequality. Opposition to such programs is deemed "racism" but could also just be opposition to government programs generally. Only about half of Black people themselves support government programs to address the economic conditions of Black people: https://press.princeton.edu/ideas/the-roots-of-black-politic... (see Figure 0.5 a-c). 62% of Black people say that race should not even be a "small factor" in college admissions: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americ...

To use your examples: what does "hegemonic masculinity" mean in this context? Is your test for "hegemonic masculinity" also going to return positive results for people who just believe in traditional gender roles (including women)?

What does "white nativism" mean in this context? My in laws in exurban Oregon are frustrated that their school is suddenly 30% immigrants who speak a variety of Latin American languages that aren't even Spanish. They want Trump to enforce the border. Are they white nativists?

By your metrics, is Angela Merkel a white nativist? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/12/14... ("Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies and therefore remains a ‘life lie,'").

Is Emanuel Macron? https://researchportal.helsinki.fi/en/publications/france-ha... ("France has never been and never will be a multicultural country")

Or are you just defining "white nativism" to mean "anyone who opposes mass immigration that changes their community's culture?" If my family back in Bangladesh was faced with the same sort of mass immigration (from say Myanmar) as my Trump-voting in laws in Oregon, their reactions would be identical! What a lot of people deem "white nativism" is the pervasive belief among people around the world that they have the right to preserve the culture of their communities.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#198

Post by ardy42 » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 10:27 PM UTC

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #191

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. It depends on what one looks at. The U.S.A., culturally, most famously treats race as if it be an ethnicity. As such, in their perspective what they call “African-American" and “European-Am…

I was surprised when I learned that this US ethnicity is a self-defined status. This means that me, a blond blue eyed man (and accessorily French) could define myself as Afro-American in the US. His comme this is not wildly used in cases where it gives you an advantage? (such as positive discrimination when entering a university, or for grants,...)

> I was surprised when I learned that this US ethnicity is a self-defined status. This means that me, a blond blue eyed man (and accessorily French) could define myself as Afro-American in the US.

That's not really true. You wouldn't be actually able to define yourself as Afro-American in the US, beyond maybe lying on a form (and even that designation would probably be overridden if it mattered). Pretty-much everyone would consider your self-designation to be annoying BS.

A few full-blooded white people have tried passing as Afro-American (only possible because of the lingering effects of the one-drop rule), but they received a lot of press (and rejection) when the real story came out.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#199

Post by alexvoda » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 10:37 PM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #181

travmatt wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m telling you that black people in America have a culture that is descended from a lot of sources, and you cannot just simplify it as Anglo-Saxon, again because such a wide swath comes from the African diaspora that ignoring that means ignoring its most noticeable aspects. Gospel, jazz, blues, and rap are not descended from any Anglo-Saxon musical tradition, nor are our dances, or many of our foods. American cultur…

> I’m telling you that black people in America have a culture that is descended from a lot of sources, and you cannot just simplify it as Anglo-Saxon, again because such a wide swath comes from the African diaspora that ignoring that means ignoring its most noticeable aspects. Gospel, jazz, blues, and rap are not descended from any Anglo-Saxon musical tradition, nor are our dances, or many of our foods. I looked up t…

Tge reason for the common instruments is that early jazz musicians used instruments discardes by marching bands.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#200

Post by refactor_master » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 10:39 PM UTC

redisman wrote: post #172

refactor_master wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vote for an overall better society with more equality. Don’t vote for populist parties who use minorities as scapegoats. Everything else follows as a natural effect of that. Immigration is hard , but politicians would like to see it all solved in their term period.

That’s a non-answer. National populist parties rise with increased immigration and a feeling of their society changing from what they’re used to. How do you tell people who vote for these parties to not do it? I’m also an immigrant but it’s become very clear to me that telling people what they want is bad and they shouldn’t want it is not working at all

The short answer is a fuzzy “more educated and equal society”. You don’t tell people what to do. They will automatically do the society-endorsed right thing(tm).

Just like religion and blind faith drops when education increases.

You could argue that “marginalized local communities” are driving the votes for populist parties, thus creating the whole problem, and by taking better care of them will actually free up more resources for everyone in the long run, because immigration is no longer this massive expense that everyone thought it was.