How Homogeneous Is Japan? • Hacker News Board

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#161

Post by kazinator » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #113

coldtea wrote: post #94

I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. Counter-examples don't refute a general observation. They can only refute an absolute statement. But when it comes to actual numbers and breakdowns (which would put a general observation into…

> I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. It depends on what one looks at. The U.S.A., culturally, most famously treats race as if it be an ethnicity. As such, in their perspective what they call “African-American" and “European-Am…

> as if it be an ethnicity

I see what you did there, homie; but next time make it efnicity. :)

> And, to note, the only Polishman I have ever had a good conversation with was quite dark skinned, but nevertheless Polish was his native language.

One of the Roma people, possibly.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#162

Post by travmatt » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #113

coldtea wrote: post #94

I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. Counter-examples don't refute a general observation. They can only refute an absolute statement. But when it comes to actual numbers and breakdowns (which would put a general observation into…

> I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. It depends on what one looks at. The U.S.A., culturally, most famously treats race as if it be an ethnicity. As such, in their perspective what they call “African-American" and “European-Am…

African-American culture is most certainly not Anglo-Saxon. It’s actual roots in the African diaspora and the Caribbean, and there are entire communities, like the Gullah of the Carolinian coasts, that have preserved their culture and language since the diaspora began. The most noticeable elements of African-American culture have been adopted into Anglo-Saxon culture, they don’t come from it. American culture predominantly descends from Anglo-Saxon culture, but it’s distinct.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#163

Post by finiteseries » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #113

coldtea wrote: post #94

I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. Counter-examples don't refute a general observation. They can only refute an absolute statement. But when it comes to actual numbers and breakdowns (which would put a general observation into…

> I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. It depends on what one looks at. The U.S.A., culturally, most famously treats race as if it be an ethnicity. As such, in their perspective what they call “African-American" and “European-Am…

Many countries actually have a large population of recent immigrants

Did you know that Spanish is spoken more in the US than Spain as of this moment? 45 million Americans compose 20% of all migrants in the world.

There are twice as many undocumented immigrants alone in the United States as there are people in Ireland, total.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-finding...

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#164

Post by Blikkentrekker » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

bigpumpkin wrote: post #149

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. It depends on what one looks at. The U.S.A., culturally, most famously treats race as if it be an ethnicity. As such, in their perspective what they call “African-American" and “European-Am…

I wouldn't call the distinct African-American culture "Anglo-Saxon". It is instead rooted in the historical experience that black people have had. The black identity was already formed during the slavery period and incorporates elements of African, European, and Native American culture. Similarly, just because people speak English does not make their culture "Anglo-Saxon". There are many different cultural practices…

> I wouldn't call the distinct African-American culture "Anglo-Saxon". It is instead rooted in the historical experience that black people have had.

It is rooted in their experience living in an Anglo-Saxon milieu.

At the end, they speak English, practice Anglo-Saxon religions, practice Anglo-Saxon traditions, eat Anglo-Saxon food, have Anglo-Saxon sensibilities on gender relationships, social hierarchies, criminal justice, parent–child relationships, personal privacy, nudity, and all the other quintessential Anglo-Saxon sensibilities and cultural norms that make it unique in the world.

> and incorporates elements of African, European, and Native American culture.

I would be interested in knowing what elements of African, European, and Native-American culture are incorporated.

It is also common cultural to draw a divide between “North-West Europe”; “Eastern Europe”, “Southern Europe” and the “British Isles” culturally, as these tend to be culturally quite different from one another, but the lines are obviously not that clear. The U.S.A. obviously primarily draws it's cues from the British Isles culturally given it's origin.

> Similarly, just because people speak English does not make their culture "Anglo-Saxon". There are many different cultural practices that coexist in America whose origins do not originate from North Western Europe.

From their perspective it might seem diverse, just as from the perspective of a Dutchman Randstad culture will seem very different from below-the-rhine culture or Eastern-Saxon culture, but an Englishman will look at all three and find them very close together, which they are on a global scale.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#165

Post by Blikkentrekker » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

finiteseries wrote: post #163

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. It depends on what one looks at. The U.S.A., culturally, most famously treats race as if it be an ethnicity. As such, in their perspective what they call “African-American" and “European-Am…

Many countries actually have a large population of recent immigrants Did you know that Spanish is spoken more in the US than Spain as of this moment? 45 million Americans compose 20% of all migrants in the world. There are twice as many undocumented immigrants alone in the United States as there are people in Ireland, total. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-finding...

And I would not refer to those Spanish speakers as “Anglo-Saxon”.

The so-called “hispanic” population is a true ethnicity within the U.S.A., distinct from the Anglo-Saxons, that is not defined by race, but by a different culture and native language.

A Hispanic man can be white, black, blow, yellow and in practice is a mixture of all, what defines him is not the color of his skin, but the language and sensibilities he was immersed in in his formative years.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#166

Post by Blikkentrekker » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

travmatt wrote: post #162

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. It depends on what one looks at. The U.S.A., culturally, most famously treats race as if it be an ethnicity. As such, in their perspective what they call “African-American" and “European-Am…

African-American culture is most certainly not Anglo-Saxon. It’s actual roots in the African diaspora and the Caribbean, and there are entire communities, like the Gullah of the Carolinian coasts, that have preserved their culture and language since the diaspora began. The most noticeable elements of African-American culture have been adopted into Anglo-Saxon culture, they don’t come from it. American culture predomi…

Well, I was born in the Caribbean and much of my family is actually culturally Caribbean, and I much disagree with that.

The African-American does not eat Caribbean food; he does not listen to Caribbean music; he does not practice Caribbean traditional festivals, does not dress in Caribbean clothes.

I definitely feel that you draw this association purely because you think of Caribbeans as dark-skinned; it is a very different culture.

The African-American in general eats Anglo-Saxon food; he listens to Anglo-Saxon music; he celebrates Christmas and Easter; and he dresses in Anglo-Saxon clothing.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#167

Post by Blikkentrekker » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #161

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. It depends on what one looks at. The U.S.A., culturally, most famously treats race as if it be an ethnicity. As such, in their perspective what they call “African-American" and “European-Am…

> as if it be an ethnicity I see what you did there, homie; but next time make it efnicity. :) > And, to note, the only Polishman I have ever had a good conversation with was quite dark skinned, but nevertheless Polish was his native language. One of the Roma people, possibly.

> I see what you did there, homie; but next time make it efnicity. :)

I do not see what I did there at all. Might you explain?

> One of the Roma people, possibly.

Not at all. Both his parents were immigrants from an African country; I do not know which.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#168

Post by rayiner » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

jberryman wrote: post #143

rayiner wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Right now means racist, what is the label for someone with the political attributes of Right, but who is not racist? There isn't one. Many liberals consider conservative beliefs to be inherently racist. Opposition to the ACA, for example, was decried as "racist": https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterubel/2013/11/21/is-opposit... . A lot of this worldview isn't unwarranted. Conservative opposition to the federal gov…

> A conservative might point out... I wonder who is this platonic Conservative you're describing in these comments; the ghost of William F. Buckley?

Your rank-and-file conservative doesn’t articulate it in those terms, obviously. But my family in Oregon doesn’t like the federal government ruling them from 3,000 miles away for concrete reasons. (In their case it’s long-standing family bitterness at the government seizing their homestead to build the pacific coast highway.) Those same social and political phenomena are present the world over, and are the reason federal systems exist all over the world.

Yes, it’s a William F. Buckley type that might make the comparison to Switzerland to explain how federalism is a neutral principle. But that doesn’t mean that what the folks in Oregon feel is merely pretext for racism. Just because someone can’t articulate their attitudes in terms of political theory (in this case, the resentment people have for being governed from afar and the governmental structures created to mitigate that) doesn’t mean that those attitudes can’t be explained in terms of that political theory. The Buckley type is just articulating and explaining concrete social phenomena on the ground.

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#169

Post by CivBase » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #160

CivBase wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The average, vocal, “conservative” that you’ll find in US media or politics is a reactionary whose bona fides consist of a few narrowly focused issues that pander to a few core constituencies including now, racists and nativists. They often don’t share conservative ideals beyond that. I don't watch much TV (especially "news" channels) so I might just be out of the loop here, but how has US conservative media been p…

“America First” and “Guns and God” are dog whistles for those types of people. You don’t hear anything about conservative principles. Just demagoguery and wielding of power.

"America First" is just the principle that the US government should prioritize US interests over the interests of other nations and people. It's about nationality, not race.

Anti-gun-control and pro-Christianity are just popular subjects for conservatives. Again, not about race. In fact, those are principles that you just claimed they don't talk about.

How are those "dog whistles for those types of people"?

Isn't that like saying "defund the police" and "black lives matter" are dog whistles for communists?

Re: How Homogeneous Is Japan?

#170

Post by Berobero » Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #94

I think this article goes through a lot of micro-exercizes and micro-corrections and semantics to avoid the obvious conclusion that Japan is mostly honogenous, and to a far more degree than the US or a lot of European countries. Counter-examples don't refute a general observation. They can only refute an absolute statement. But when it comes to actual numbers and breakdowns (which would put a general observation into…

While I'm not necessarily a fan of this particular article, I feel it relevant to point out that explicitly denying the "homogenous myth" of Japan has political value as a counter to its all-too-common use by conservative nationalist ideologues in Japan to casually brush aside the entirely valid concerns groups who don't check off all the boxes of "being Japanese".

> Those Korean-Japanese are no less Japanese culturally

To this point, however, on a somewhat lighter note, notice that the birth rate of Korean-Japanese shown in the article's graph dips sharply in 1966. This is due to it being the year of the Fire-Horse (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Hinoe_uma), which AFAIK is a superstition unique to Japan. We're due for another Fire-Horse year in 2026, so it'll be interesting to see what happens then, too.